<div dir="ltr">
<p class=""><span style="font-size:12pt"> </span></p>
<p class=""><span style="font-size:12pt">Hi Stathis,</span></p>
<p class=""><span style="font-size:12pt"> </span></p>
<p class=""><span style="font-size:12pt">OK, perhaps we have a problem where we are not on the same
page with our assumptions, or at least my attempt to work with the same assumptions as you.<span style> </span>So let’s see how close I am.<span style> </span>Let me know if you disagree
with any of the following</span></p>
<p class=""><span style="font-size:12pt"> </span></p>
<p class="" style="margin-left:0.5in"><span style="font-size:12pt"><span style>1.<span style="font:7pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><span style="font-size:12pt">There is some physical neural correlated responsible for a
redness experience, including the possibility that this correlate may be purely
functional, or any “functional isomorph”.<span style>
</span>In other words, you are predicting it doesn’t matter what hardware is
used, but there must be some hardware that is the “functional isomorph”
responsible for the redness quale functionality.</span></p>
<p class="" style="margin-left:0.5in"><span style="font-size:12pt"><span style>2.<span style="font:7pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><span style="font-size:12pt">The “functional isomorph” for redness, will be at least functionally
different than greenness, in a way that you will be able to observe the necessary
and sufficient causal properties of the physical matter which this “functional
isomorph” is implemented on.<span style> </span>In other
words, you will be able to build a system that can reliably determine if
someone is experiencing a redness quale, and not greenness, and so on.<span style> Given this you will be </span>able to build a ‘comparitor’
or binding neuron or system that tells you a redness functional isomorph has been detected.<br></span></p>
<p class="" style="margin-left:0.5in"><span style="font-size:12pt"><span style>3.<span style="font:7pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><span style="font-size:12pt">The detection system has an abstracted output.<span style> </span>It will produce a “1” if it is detecting a
redness functional isomorph and it will output a “0” if it detects a greenness
isomorph.</span></p>
<p class="" style="margin-left:0.5in"><span style="font-size:12pt"><span style>4.<span style="font:7pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><span style="font-size:12pt">By definition, this abstracted “1” output, is just an
abstract representation of the redness functional isomorph being detected.<span style> </span>This abstracted “1” can be anything, like maybe the abstract word 'red' with any amount of complexity, it just, by definition, can't be a functional ismorph of redness.<span style> T</span>he important part here, is you don’t know what the abstracted output
“1” signal is representing, unless you know to ground the meaning by looking this
up in a dictionary, and get back the a real red functional isomorph.<span style> </span>The "1", or whatever is representing it, is by definition, not a redness functional isomorph, and its relationship to a redness functional isomorph is completely arbitrary and only defined in a map or dictionary.</span></p>
<p class="" style="margin-left:0.5in"><span style="font-size:12pt"><span style>5.<span style="font:7pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><span style="font-size:12pt">Now, our goal with the neural substitution, is to replace everything
one piece at a time, including the real functional isomorphs of redness, and
replace them with the abstracted “1”, which by definition, is not a redness functional isomorph.<br></span></p>
<p class=""><span style="font-size:12pt"> </span></p>
<p class=""><span style="font-size:12pt">Are we on the same page with all that being theoretically possible?</span></p>
<p class=""><span style="font-size:12pt"> </span></p>
<p class=""><span style="font-size:12pt">Brent Allsop</span></p>
<p class=""><span style="font-size:12pt"> </span></p>
</div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Tue, May 7, 2013 at 8:21 AM, Stathis Papaioannou <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:stathisp@gmail.com" target="_blank">stathisp@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div class="im"><br><br>On Tuesday, May 7, 2013, Brent Allsop wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr">
<p><span style="font-size:12pt"> </span></p>
<p><span style="font-size:12pt">Hi Stathis,</span></p>
<p><span style="font-size:12pt"> </span></p>
<p><span style="font-size:12pt">You said:</span></p><div class="im">
<p><span style="font-size:12pt"> </span></p>
<p><span style="font-size:12pt">“the binding system [behaves] in the same way if it receives
the same input.”</span></p>
<p><span style="font-size:12pt"> </span></p>
<p><span style="font-size:12pt">And this is exactly the problem.<span> </span>An Input, by definition, is some arbitrary
medium, with a hardware translation layer, to transducer the “intput” to be
whatever abstracted info you want to think of it as (like a “1” or a “0”).<span> </span>If you have two abstracted inputs, there is
some simple logic, like the following which will indicate if it is the same:</span></p>
<p><span style="font-size:12pt"> </span></p>
<p><span style="font-size:12pt"><span> </span>I<span> </span>R<span> </span>I
= R</span></p>
<p><span style="font-size:12pt"><span> </span>0<span> </span>0<span> </span>1</span></p>
<p><span style="font-size:12pt"><span> </span>0<span> </span>1<span> </span>0</span></p>
<p><span style="font-size:12pt"><span> </span>1<span> </span>0<span> </span>0</span></p>
<p><span style="font-size:12pt"><span> </span>1<span> </span>1<span> </span>1</span></p>
<p><span style="font-size:12pt"> </span></p>
<p><span style="font-size:12pt">Whatever arbitrary stuff you are using to achieve this
arbitrary logic, will produce the results.<span>
</span>But this is radically different than what I’m talking about and what
consciousness is doing and why it is saying it has detected redness.<br></span></p>
<p><span style="font-size:12pt"> </span></p>
<p><span style="font-size:12pt">We select redness, not because of any old random logic, that
doesn’t matter what it is implemented on.<span>
</span>We select redness because of what it is qualitatively like.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-size:12pt"> </span></p>
<p><span style="font-size:12pt">If you think about what it must be, objectively, it must
include some kind of difference detection system that detects a real set of
causal properties(say those of glutamate) and that this system will only say it
is real glutamate, if and only if it is real glutamate.<span> </span>The reason it is saying it is real glutamate,
is because of the real causal properties it is detecting, not because of some
arbitrarily set of hardware configured to do the abstracted logic.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-size:12pt"> </span></p>
<p><span style="font-size:12pt">The binding neuron does know about the qualitative nature of
redness and greenness, and it is only saying it is redness, because of it’s qualitative
property.<span> </span>And of course, if you look at
it objectively, because of the quale interpretation problem, it will just look
like some system that is indicated it has detected redness, because it has
detected whatever the causal (or even functional, if you must) properties.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-size:12pt"> </span></p>
<p><span style="font-size:12pt">Anyway, this is still all crude ways of saying it, so I
doulbt you’ll be able to get with just this, but thanks so much for your
continued help with me trying to find the best way to describe what I’m trying
to talking about.</span></p><p></p></div></div></blockquote><div>Unfortunately I don't see the problem you see. We could imagine replacing a whole person with a zombie double who slots into society unnoticed despite lacking qualia, so how could there be an issue with a neuron doing the same among fellow neurons?<span></span> </div>
<span class="HOEnZb"><font color="#888888">
<br><br>-- <br>Stathis Papaioannou<br>
</font></span></blockquote></div><br></div>