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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=EN-US link=blue vlink=purple><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> extropy-chat-bounces@lists.extropy.org [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces@lists.extropy.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Kelly Anderson<br><b><span style='color:#1F497D'>…</span></b></span><o:p></o:p></p><div><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'>>…</span>Ok, I think I'm following along... but if all you need is energy and raw materials, why start with Coal?<span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>You don’t have to use coal, but that is likely the cheapest carbon source and the one most likely to be economically viable with a wind and GB solar driven carbon to liquids process.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'>>…</span> Why not start with CO2 sucked from the atmosphere (should make the greens happy)<span style='color:#1F497D'>…<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'>Wrong-o. Nothing will make the greens happy. But I digress. The reason you wouldn’t take CO2 out of the air is that it takes too much energy. There is a possibility of using natural gas from fracking operations as a carbon source. This one is possibly more viable than coal. Another possibility is biomass, but this takes more energy than coal conversions. Biomass does pull down CO2 and brings in the hydrogen as well, so in that sense it might help get some political and investor support. A combination biomass and coal conversion plant is a possibility. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'>Regarding greens, unfortunately politics gets all mixed up in there, and politics will destroy anything it touches.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'>>…</span> Yes, you have more latent energy in the coal, but if the energy is really free, then why not just create it from the atmosphere and bag the whole disagreeable matter of mining coal in the first place? You might even be able to produce liquid Oxygen as a nice side benefit<span style='color:#1F497D'>…</span>-Kelly<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>The energy isn’t free except in the thought experiment. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Here’s how we unify the notions of the EROI and energy cliff. We can do the math and realize the concept of EROI is telling us something important, and the energy cliff is real. But my notion is that we can be OK in it if we see it coming and invest in energy infrastructure now while we have abundant cheap energy. If we do that enough, then when the red queen effect becomes perfectly obvious to the casual observer, we will already have enough wind and solar powered coal to liquids infrastructure to power more wind and solar powered coal to liquids infrastructure. Then we should be OK.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>My question: are we doing the preliminary installation fast enough? My intuition and BOTECs tell me we are not. What worries me is that free markets may not be sufficient to anticipate and proact. We already know that governments cannot and will not.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>spike</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div></div></div></body></html>