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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=EN-US link=blue vlink=purple><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> extropy-chat-bounces@lists.extropy.org [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces@lists.extropy.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Kelly Anderson<br><br><b><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></b></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'>>…</span>The constitution only protects the privacy of US citizens, and possibly visitors to the USA<span style='color:#1F497D'>…<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'>Ah EXCELLENT! Finally someone who has found where in the constitution it says anything about US citizens having the inalienable right to privacy. I have been searching for that since I don’t know how long. Kelly, where did you find that?<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'>>…</span>Ms. Merkel is a foreign national who is not protected by the constitution<span style='color:#1F497D'>…<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'>I agree. Now where in the constitution does it say anything about privacy?<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'>My heartburn with it is not that it is illegal but rather that it would piss off the one who should be our strongest ally. One day soon we will wake up and discover that China, Japan and Germany are the only three countries in the world capable of loaning money in the kinds of absurd quantities we USians demand of other countries, and I am not so sure about Japan.</span> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'>>…</span>Which is why they shouldn't have gotten caught. Don't we have the obligation to make sure our "friends" are really our friends, even behind closed doors?<span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>They aren’t really friends Kelly. There are no friends. Only potential bankers.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in'><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:11.55pt'><span style='color:#1F497D'>We see the current bunch are saying the Tea Party patriots are terrorists and coming very close to identifying them as national enemies. OK then what happens if they get a bunch of seats in congress next fall, more than they already have? </span><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></blockquote><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'>>…</span>History is not with them on gaining seats during the second term of a lame duck president<span style='color:#1F497D'>…<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>The midterms a year from today will be a referendum on ObamaCare. One year from now, very little else will matter. If this thing crashes as hard as I think it will, the Democrat party will lose a bunch of seats, the Republicans will break even or lose a few and the Tea Party will be a force to be with reckoned. If O-care succeeds, just the opposite. Nothing else will matter much.</span> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'>>…</span>But Obamacare failing is exactly what will lead to a single payer system. It's too big to fail, remember?<span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>That isn’t clear to me. It sure appears to be set up for failure, but it isn’t at all clear the next step is single payer. I would go for that if done at a state level, or if we get a national balanced budget amendment to go with it. Or we destroy our credit rating, so no sane party will loan us money.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'>>…</span>They can't help but fail. It is the government we're talking about. They never really succeed at anything really important. Yes, they occasionally build a bridge to somewhere. Yes, they did defend us against Hitler. But generally speaking if you want something screwed up badly enough you give it to the government and you are assured it will be<span style='color:#1F497D'>…<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Agreed, so why do you think this current misadventure is a step toward single payer?<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <span style='color:#1F497D'>>…</span>I would love to see the youth of America revolt against this. It is them who are getting the biggest shaft from O-care. Paying for insurance that THEY DON'T NEED. It is redistribution of health. Only it is from the poorest youth of America who can't get a job coming out of college, to the richest, the older folk in America, who are the most well off demographic. I thought socialism was supposed to help the poor<span style='color:#1F497D'>…<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Don’t worry Kelly, the young will revolt bigtime. It will be like the old burn the draft card days, but this one may have some damn serious consequences. That business about setting the IRS to where they can demand payment but not place any criminal sanctions for non-payment nor issue liens against property or bank accounts for non-payment will hurt us. It will send a message to a generation that they do not need to pay their taxes. The whole scheme dilutes the power of the IRS, which could have catastrophic consequences.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'>>…</span>Obama lied, grandma died<span style='color:#1F497D'>…<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Oooh that’s cold. {8^D<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in'><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>My favorite I have thought of so far:</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in;text-indent:.5in'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in;text-indent:.5in'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Tune In, Turn On, Opt Out</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div></blockquote><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'>>…</span>LOL. That will work for a few years, until the penalties are so large that you have to pay attention to them<span style='color:#1F497D'>…<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'>No sir. Even if you pay attention to them, the IRS still has no means of collecting the opt-out fees. I notice a lot of the articles on the topic say things like “The ACA didn’t include any provisions for the IRS to enforce collection of the penalties.” This kinda misses the point by understatement: the ACA clearly specifically forbids the IRS from enforcing the penalties. They are free to DEMAND payment, they can even send a bill. They just can’t do anything if the taxpayer just says no. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'>Next, note that the ACA is designed to be difficult or impossible to modify without nullifying the whole thing. That is why they specifically removed the isolation clauses. They didn’t forget them, they carefully extracted them, so the insurance companies wouldn’t be left holding the bag.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'>The section which explicitly forbids the IRS from collecting the opt-out tax is cross linked to the section on the insurance companies requirement to sell to any zombie who staggers thru the door. If they kill the prohibition for the IRS to collect, they kill the requirement for the insurance company to sell to zombies. If those two things go out, the only thing that is left of O-care is a pile of wood pulp, granted a tall one. That linking of those two things was intentional and carefully designed by those who wrote this bill behind closed doors in Senate private chambers, with one party and a collection of insurance company reps with plenty of campaign donations to hand out freely. Kelly, is this all making sense now?</span> <span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'>>…</span>I have already failed at selling T-Shirts, remember Caucasians for Mitt Romney?<span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>{8^D<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'>>…</span>Of course, I haven't learned my lesson, I'm now working on a T-Shirt deal for <a href="http://www.itanimulli.com">http://www.itanimulli.com</a> (Note that is <a href="http://illuminati.com">illuminati.com</a> spelled backwards. You should see what happens when you type that into a web browser<span style='color:#1F497D'>…<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Haaaaahahahahahhaaaaa! Excellent gag, me lad. The New World Order crowd just keeps falling for the same gag, over and over and over. It seems they just cannot learn. They were falling for that back when I was in high school, they still are. That crowd doesn’t seem to get it: the New World Order isn’t some big secret evil conspiracy; that isn’t necessary. We create the New World Order by borrowing two million dollars per second with no credible means of repaying it, then identify as enemies of the state anyone who points out that this madness is madness.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>I've always liked:<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>You can keep the Change, but I want my Hope back.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>-Kelly<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>We will not be keeping the change. We already saw the 1 November fix date blow by, the HealthCare.gov site isn’t fixed. We are already seeing what looks to me like pre-emptive apologies for not making the 1 December date with a report I heard just today: the site never even attempted to encrypt any of the information they were collecting. Didn’t even try! I know it takes more than four weeks to tack on after the fact some kind of encryption that could scale to millions of applicants, considering how complicated that site is and how many leaky contractors are involved. That whole task should never have involved the Fed, it should have been done by the insurance companies. They would each have smaller, more manageable systems in place and would have incentive to keep their own customer’s data private. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>But back to the most interesting claim you made right at first Kelly: where did you find in the constitution anything about US citizens being entitled to privacy? I know the legal system has laws and that “reasonable expectation of privacy” phrase that determines the legality of snooping, but where is it in the constitution?<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>spike<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div></div></div></div></div></body></html>