<div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:comic sans ms,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(11,83,148)">Well, I am sorry for that, Samantha, but I was only interested in sharing info about the test.  Most tests are just for conservative- liberal and not for authoritarian-libertarian.<br>

<br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:comic sans ms,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(11,83,148)">I don't even remember that article you refer to and probably would agree with you about its deficiencies.  bill w<br>

</div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Sat, May 24, 2014 at 6:31 PM, Samantha Atkins <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:sjatkins@mac.com" target="_blank">sjatkins@mac.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>

<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
  
    
  
  <div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF"><div class="">
    <br>
    <div>On 05/24/2014 09:53 AM, William Wallace
      wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote type="cite">
      
      <div>This ignores the liberal libertarian.  See political <a href="http://compass.org" target="_blank">compass.org</a>
        for a relevant test.  Bill w<br>
        <br>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    <br></div>
    The article is typical wordy nonsense.    I am a libertarian because
    I care deeply for people and human relationships - voluntary human
    relationships. Deep caring about people requires not initiating
    force against them.   Appreciation of the apparent fact that humans
    survive and thrive as creatures by using their general intelligences
    to reach their own conclusions about what is best for them seems to
    me to require making maximal room for people to make their own
    decisions and succeed or fail on that basis.    An appreciation for
    information requirements of decision making lead to believing that
    more localized decision made by those with more "skin the the game"
    will tend to be better than more centralized decisions of necessity
    made by those with less detailed local information and less interest
    in outcomes relevant to any of those actually locally involved.<br>
    <br>
    The so-called moral foundation theory of the article is a joke.  It
    simply asserts without philosophical basis that derived things like
    "respect for authority" are actually primary.   It includes things
    without definition such as "fairness".<span class="HOEnZb"><font color="#888888"><br>
    <br>
    - samantha</font></span><div><div class="h5"><br>
    <blockquote type="cite">
      <div>Sent from my iPad</div>
      <div><br>
        On May 24, 2014, at 10:05 AM, James Clement <<a href="mailto:clementlawyer@gmail.com" target="_blank">clementlawyer@gmail.com</a>>
        wrote:<br>
        <br>
      </div>
      <blockquote type="cite">
        <div>
          <div dir="ltr">Professor Haidt has made it to this list a
            number of times in the past.
            <div><br>
            </div>
            <div>
              <h2>
                A look at libertarian morality</h2>
              <div>
                <ul style="margin:15px 0px;padding:0px;border:0px;list-style:none;float:right">
                  <li style="margin:0px;padding:0px;border:0px;background-image:none;line-height:1;overflow:hidden;display:inline"><a href="http://www.scienceonreligion.org/index.php/news-research/research-updates/555-a-look-at-libertarian-morality?tmpl=component&print=1&layout=default&page=" title="Print" rel="nofollow" style="color:rgb(123,165,102);margin:0px;padding:0px;border:0px" target="_blank"><img src="http://www.scienceonreligion.org/templates/ja_purity_ii_sor/images/system/printButton.png" alt="Print" style="margin:0px 5px 0px 0px;padding:0px;border:0px"></a> </li>


                  <li style="margin:0px;padding:0px;border:0px;background-image:none;line-height:1;overflow:hidden;display:inline"><a href="http://www.scienceonreligion.org/index.php/component/mailto/?tmpl=component&template=ja_purity_ii_sor&link=8b104ac2d32a9b1dfa5b2eaeac0d2e5029a8eb76" title="Email" style="color:rgb(123,165,102);margin:0px;padding:0px;border:0px" target="_blank"><img src="http://www.scienceonreligion.org/templates/ja_purity_ii_sor/images/system/emailButton.png" alt="Email" style="margin:0px 5px 0px 0px;padding:0px;border:0px"></a></li>


                </ul>
                <dl style="margin:0px;padding:0px;border:0px;float:left;width:850px">
                  <dd style="margin:0px;padding:0px 5px 0px 0px;border:0px;display:inline">Published on <span style="margin:0px;padding:0px;border:0px">29 June
                      2013</span> </dd>
                  <dd style="margin:0px;padding:0px 5px 0px 0px;border:0px;background-image:url(http://www.scienceonreligion.org/templates/ja_purity_ii_sor/images/icon-user.gif);line-height:15px;display:inline;background-repeat:no-repeat no-repeat">


                    Written by <span style="margin:0px;padding:0px;border:0px">Connor
                      Wood</span> </dd>
                  <dd style="margin:0px;padding:0px 5px 0px 0px;border:0px;line-height:21px;display:inline">Hits: <span style="margin:0px;padding:0px;border:0px">105</span></dd>
                </dl>
              </div>
              <div>
                <ul style="margin:15px 0px;padding:0px;border:0px;list-style:none">
                </ul>
              </div>
              <p><img src="http://www.scienceonreligion.org/images/Libertarian_Porupine.jpg" alt="Libertarian Porupine" style="margin:0px;padding:0px;border:2px solid rgb(255,255,255);float:right" height="139" width="200">You know your
                libertarian friend? The one who votes Republican but
                scoffs at “family values,” who posts Ron Paul quotes on
                Facebook and thinks taxes are a form of theft? Well,
                thanks to some new research, we now know more about him
                (or her). The results are both unsurprising and
                shocking. Obviously, libertarians prize personal liberty
                and freedom above just about everything, but they don’t
                value the tight, bonded relationships that people
                throughout history have depended on for survival. This
                means that libertarianism isn’t just a political stance
                – it’s a new way of looking at human social life.</p>
              <p>University
                of Southern California psychologist Ravi Iyer teamed up
                with University of Virginia colleague <span>Jonathan</span> <span>Haidt</span> (now at NYU) and several other
                colleagues to see how libertarians compared with
                ordinary liberals and conservatives in a massive online
                sample. <span>Haidt</span> is well-known for
                formulating<a title="MoralFoundations.org" href="http://www.moralfoundations.org/" style="color:rgb(123,165,102);margin:0px;padding:0px;border:0px" target="_blank">moral
                  foundations theory</a>, which claims that human
                morality can be understood as drawing on five basic
                instincts: harm avoidance, fairness, respect for
                authority, ingroup loyalty, and purity. Previous
                findings published by <span>Haidt</span> and
                his doctoral student Jesse Graham (who also contributed
                to this research) had shown that <a title="Graham et al. PubMed" href="http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19379034" style="color:rgb(123,165,102);margin:0px;padding:0px;border:0px" target="_blank">conservatives
                  tended to emphasize all five of these</a> foundations
                equally, while liberals mostly ignored authority,
                ingroup loyalty, and purity, while strongly emphasizing
                harm avoidance and fairness.</p>
              <p>This
                pattern of moral profiles, which has been replicated
                across different cultures and nations, suggests that
                conservatives actually <i style="margin:0px;padding:0px;border:0px">feel</i> moral
                emotions differently than liberals, and vice-versa. But,
                of course, not all conservatives and liberals are the
                same. Libertarians are often lumped in with
                conservatives in contemporary American politics, but
                they tend not to share several of the traits of
                traditional conservatives – particularly respect for
                tradition and authority. Iyer and the other researchers
                run a well-known survey website, <a title="YourMorals.org" href="http://www.yourmorals.org/index.php" style="color:rgb(123,165,102);margin:0px;padding:0px;border:0px" target="_blank">YourMorals.org, </a>and they
                decided to use this online platform to see whether these
                differences actually showed up in surveys measuring
                personality type, moral opinions, and similar
                characteristics.</p>
              <p>Crunching
                data from over 150,000 visitors who took online surveys
                at <a href="http://YourMorals.org" target="_blank">YourMorals.org</a>
                between 2007 and 2011, Iyer and the other researchers <a title="PLOS ONE" href="http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0042366" style="color:rgb(123,165,102);margin:0px;padding:0px;border:0px" target="_blank">found
                  that libertarians</a> did, indeed, have a unique
                personality profile that distinguished them from both
                conservatives and liberals. As you might expect,
                libertarians rated themselves as economically
                conservative, but socially liberal. But perhaps more
                surprisingly, libertarians showed a moral profile that
                was distinctly their own: like liberals, they didn’t
                place much importance on the moral dimensions of
                authority, ingroup loyalty, or purity. But like
                conservatives, they didn’t emphasize the “liberal”
                dimensions of harm avoidance and fairness, either. This
                meant that, compared with liberals and conservatives,
                they actually seemed to feel fewer moral emotions,
                period.</p>
              <p>       
                                             <img src="http://www.scienceonreligion.org/images/Ravi_quote.jpg" alt="Ravi
                  quote" style="margin:0px;padding:0px;border:1px solid rgb(255,255,255);vertical-align:middle" height="41" width="300"></p>
              <p>Or did
                they? A new, sixth moral dimension, “liberty,” was
                tested on a small subset of the site’s total visitors, 
                and it seemed to garner the lion’s share of libertarian
                interest. Compared with both liberals and conservatives,
                libertarians more strongly endorsed the moral importance
                of both economic and lifestyle liberty. The authors
                interpreted this result to mean that libertarians
                actually felt a weight of <i style="margin:0px;padding:0px;border:0px">moral</i> concern
                when it came to being left alone to do what they wanted,
                or to decide how to use their own economic resources.</p>
              <p>No
                surprise, right? They’re called “libertarians,” after
                all. But remember: this emphasis on personal liberty
                seemed to come at the expense of other types of moral
                concern, such as fairness, respect for authority, or
                concern about harm to others. Libertarian morality not
                only showed an empirically different profile than that
                of liberals or conservatives, but it emphasized liberty
                and individual autonomy to an extraordinary extent.</p>
              <p><span style="margin:0px;padding:0px;border:0px">Another
                  interesting finding had to do with personality. The
                  so-called <a title="Big Five
                    Wikipedia" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Five_personality_traits" style="color:rgb(123,165,102);margin:0px;padding:0px;border:0px" target="_blank">Big
                    Five personality inventory</a> breaks down
                  personality into five distinct tendencies: openness to
                  new experience, agreeableness, conscientiousness,
                  extraversion, and neuroticism. Historically, many
                  researchers have used the Big Five to look at the
                  difference between conservatives and liberals.
                  Generally, the most common finding is that <a title="Steffan Antonas blog" href="http://blog.steffanantonas.com/the-real-difference-between-liberals-and-conservatives.htm" style="color:rgb(123,165,102);margin:0px;padding:0px;border:0px" target="_blank">liberals
                    are much more open to new experiences</a> than
                  conservatives, while conservatives tend more toward
                  conscientiousness and, in some studies, agreeableness.
                  (Some researchers also think that conservatives may be
                  less neurotic than liberals, and Iyer's findings
                  mildly support this view.)</span></p>
              <p><img src="http://www.scienceonreligion.org/images/Libertarians_less_connected_graph.jpg" alt="Libertarians less connected graph" style="margin:0px;padding:0px;border:2px solid rgb(255,255,255);float:right" height="312" width="350">In this
                study, Iyer and his colleagues found that libertarians
                again had their own unique personality profile. Like
                liberals, libertarians were significantly more open to
                new experiences than conservatives. And along with
                conservatives, they reported less neurosis than lib<span style="background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">rals. But
                  they were significantly <i style="margin:0px;padding:0px;border:0px">less</i> agreeable,
                  conscientious, and extraverted than both conservatives
                  and liberals. This finding stood up to multiple
                  statistical analyses, leaving the authors to conclude
                  that libertarians seemed to have a recognizable
                  personality style: one that was highly open to new
                  experiences and stimulus, emotionally steady, and not
                  quite as motivated by getting along with others.</span></p>
              <p><span style="background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">Finally,
                  libertarians seemed to enjoy <i style="margin:0px;padding:0px;border:0px">thinking</i> more
                  than either liberals or conservatives. In a test of
                  empathic versus systemizing tendencies, libertarians
                  were the only group that scored higher in systemizing
                  than in empathizing. In this context, empathizing
                  refers to interest in other people, while systemizing
                  refers to fascination with inanimate or abstract
                  objects. Thus, libertarians showed themselves to be
                  highly stimulated, not by other people, but by <i style="margin:0px;padding:0px;border:0px">things</i> and <i style="margin:0px;padding:0px;border:0px">ideas. </i>(See
                  the graph to the right on libertarians' patterns of
                  social connection.) This finding dovetailed with
                  libertarians’ results on the Different Types of Love
                  scale, which showed that libertarians reported feeling
                  less love than liberals or conservatives toward
                  different groups, including friends, romantic
                  partners, and humanity in general. Meanwhile, they
                  also reported higher need for cognition, or motivation
                  to engage in thinking and problem-solving.</span></p>
              <p><span style="background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">Iyer’s
                  findings paint a fascinating, if sometimes
                  challenging, portrait of libertarians in today’s
                  complex political landscape. Like liberals,
                  libertarians are hungry for novel experiences and
                  often dismissive of tradition, authority, and concerns
                  about purity or sacredness. They’re also not as
                  conscientious, detail-oriented, or agreeable as
                  conservatives, and they’re much more stimulated by
                  intellectual and abstract challenges (they performed
                  better or tests of analytic thinking, too). In some
                  ways, libertarians almost seem <i style="margin:0px;padding:0px;border:0px">more</i> liberal
                  than liberals – further away from the warm confines of
                  tradition, more on the edge of established cultural
                  boundaries. In the past, human social arrangements
                  were almost always tight, emotionally weighty, and
                  powered by shared ritual, value, and religious
                  tradition. If culture is a laboratory, libertarians
                  are cooking up quite an innovative, and unprecedented,
                  experiment indeed.</span></p>
            </div>
            <div class="gmail_extra"><br clear="all">
              <div>
                <div dir="ltr">
                  <div>James</div>
                </div>
              </div>
              <br>
              <br>
              <div class="gmail_quote">On Sat, May 24, 2014 at 10:40 AM,
                William Flynn Wallace <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:foozler83@gmail.com" target="_blank">foozler83@gmail.com</a>></span>
                wrote:<br>
                <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
                  <div dir="ltr">
                    <div style="font-family:comic sans ms,sans-serif;font-size:large;color:rgb(11,83,148)">For
                      me, it's about morality, the larger question.<br>
                      <br>
                      Few books that are called 'seminal' truly are, but
                      this one is:<br>
                      <br>
                    </div>
                    <div style="font-family:comic sans ms,sans-serif;font-size:large;color:rgb(11,83,148)">The
                      Righteous Mind, by Jonathan Haidt (social
                      psychologist).  In a sense, he takes morality and
                      does a factor analysis of it, coming up with these
                      categories:<br>
                      <br>
                    </div>
                    <div style="font-family:comic sans ms,sans-serif;font-size:large;color:rgb(11,83,148)">Care
                      (uncompassion to Ben), Fairness, Loyalty,
                      Sanctity, and Authority.<br>
                      <br>
                    </div>
                    <div style="font-family:comic sans ms,sans-serif;font-size:large;color:rgb(11,83,148)">
                      People on the right use all of these fairly
                      equally, but liberals treat Care and Fairness as
                      major factors and the others as rather minor or
                      even unimportant (or actually bad, such as the
                      libertarians' attitude towards authority).<br>
                      <br>
                    </div>
                    <div style="font-family:comic sans ms,sans-serif;font-size:large;color:rgb(11,83,148)">Easily
                      read by any college grad, this book will expand
                      your understanding of morality - guaranteed.  bill
                      w<br>
                    </div>
                  </div>
                  <div>
                    <div>
                      <div class="gmail_extra"><br>
                        <br>
                        <div class="gmail_quote">On Sat, May 24, 2014 at
                          1:22 AM, Ben Goertzel <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:ben@goertzel.org" target="_blank">ben@goertzel.org</a>></span>
                          wrote:<br>
                          <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Hi Rafal,<br>
                            <div><br>
                              On Fri, May 16, 2014 at 12:48 PM, Rafal
                              Smigrodzki<br>
                              <<a href="mailto:rafal.smigrodzki@gmail.com" target="_blank">rafal.smigrodzki@gmail.com</a>>
                              wrote:<br>
                              > Some time ago I posted here about
                              what my understanding of "leftism" - that<br>
                              > it is a current manifestation of the
                              age-old human obsession with status. A<br>
                              > leftist is a status-obsessed (i.e.
                              envious) hypocrite, predictably attracted<br>
                              > to the hierarchies of government
                              bureaucracy, academia and mainstream<br>
                              > journalism.<br>
                              <br>
                            </div>
                            I don't normally read this list but this
                            caught my eye for some reason..<br>
                            <br>
                            I guess I qualify as a "leftist" if I have
                            to be projected onto the<br>
                            left/right axis.  Certainly I'm 100x more
                            leftist than rightist...<br>
                            <br>
                            I hate bureaucracy; I quit academia because
                            I got sick of the<br>
                            bureacracy and the status-seeking BS; and I
                            don't care for mainstream<br>
                            media much either...<br>
                            <br>
                            However, I come from many generations of
                            leftists, even plenty of<br>
                            Marxists among my grandparents etc. (though
                            my parents abandoned any<br>
                            form of strict Marxism in the late 70s on
                            observing the reality of the<br>
                            Soviet Union, they remain fairly leftist...)<br>
                            <br>
                            To me leftism is about compassion and
                            fairness more than anything<br>
                            else.   It's about believing the social
                            contract should, normatively,<br>
                            include a responsibility for society to
                            provide everyone some minimal<br>
                            level of help and opportunity.   It's about
                            feeling it's morally wrong<br>
                            for a small elite, with power and wealth
                            that is mainly inherited, to<br>
                            control nearly everything and take most of
                            the goodies for themselves.<br>
                            <br>
                            Anyway I have a low estimate of the ultimate
                            value to be gotten from<br>
                            in-depth discussion of politics on this
                            list.  I just wanted to<br>
                            briefly speak out against your caricature of
                            leftist politics...<br>
                            <br>
                            If anyone on the list is interested in some
                            thoughtful writing in the<br>
                            leftist direction I'd suggest<br>
                            <br>
                            -- George Lakoff's various writings on the
                            topic, e.g. Moral Politics<br>
                            <br>
                            -- Piketty's recent master work "Capital in
                            the 21st Century" (which<br>
                            is flawed in ignoring exponential
                            technological acceleration, but is<br>
                            an excellent, thoroughly data-driven summary
                            of the economics of the<br>
                            last few hundred years.  Turns out the data
                            is way more supportive of<br>
                            leftist than rightist thinking...)<br>
                            <br>
                            Rafal, it goes w/o saying I have great
                            respect for your scientific<br>
                            work and your general stature as a creative,
                            proactive human being.<br>
                            But I can't agree w/ your view on leftism.
                             IMO in a world without<br>
                            leftist activiism throughout the 20th
                            century, but with other<br>
                            political factors roughly the same, the
                            Western nations would now be<br>
                            far more extremely owned by small egocentric
                            elites, and science and<br>
                            tech progress would be much less than they
                            have been, as well as total<br>
                            human happiness being much lower.   (Of
                            course, I can also envision<br>
                            other systems of gov't far better than
                            anything current left or right<br>
                            politicos imagine.  But that's a different
                            story.) .... Similarly,<br>
                            going forward toward Singularity, if we
                            subtracted leftist<br>
                            thinking/attitudes and left other
                            sociopolitical factors roughly the<br>
                            same, we'd end up with a pre-Singularity
                            period in which small selfish<br>
                            elites simply owned everything and
                            manipulated the Singularity path<br>
                            for their own personal good.  This would
                            lead to all sorts of dangers<br>
                            and problems beyond the intrinsic moral
                            aspects of uncompassion and<br>
                            unfairness...<br>
                            <br>
                            -- Ben G<br>
                            <br>
                            <br>
                            ;)<br>
                            <span><font color="#888888">Ben<br>
                              </font></span>
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