<html>
<head>
<meta content="text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1"
http-equiv="Content-Type">
</head>
<body text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 05/24/2014 08:25 AM, William Flynn
Wallace wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CAO+xQEYwGMwimZ63_YcY+cUSzGkZp3pA_EF=+U7oQp+y8_+e1w@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:comic sans
ms,sans-serif;font-size:large;color:rgb(11,83,148)">Libertarians
don't like authority, or at least question it severely if it
is some sort of science thing. But look at the needs of
society:<br>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
What a cheap characterization. Libertarians believe in
voluntarism. That is they do not agree that any good is achieved by
some humans initiating force against other humans to make them act
contrary to their own best judgment. Or to put it a different
way. Libertarians believe in self ownership. Which means that you
have the right to do whatever you think best in all situations as
long as you do not abrogate the right of others to do the same and
do not harm them. <br>
<br>
We have no problem with authority as such unless you are using it as
a euphemism granting the authority the right to initiate force. <br>
<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CAO+xQEYwGMwimZ63_YcY+cUSzGkZp3pA_EF=+U7oQp+y8_+e1w@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:comic sans
ms,sans-serif;font-size:large;color:rgb(11,83,148)">
<br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:comic sans
ms,sans-serif;font-size:large;color:rgb(11,83,148)">Somebody
has to :<br>
<br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:comic sans
ms,sans-serif;font-size:large;color:rgb(11,83,148)">
take out trash<br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:comic sans
ms,sans-serif;font-size:large;color:rgb(11,83,148)">fix roads<br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:comic sans
ms,sans-serif;font-size:large;color:rgb(11,83,148)">
put out fires<br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:comic sans
ms,sans-serif;font-size:large;color:rgb(11,83,148)">catch bad
guys<br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:comic sans
ms,sans-serif;font-size:large;color:rgb(11,83,148)">
etc.<br>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
Libertarians do all of these things and more. So what is this
canard implying that we do not?<br>
<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CAO+xQEYwGMwimZ63_YcY+cUSzGkZp3pA_EF=+U7oQp+y8_+e1w@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:comic sans
ms,sans-serif;font-size:large;color:rgb(11,83,148)"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:comic sans
ms,sans-serif;font-size:large;color:rgb(11,83,148)">So what we
do is pool out money through taxes and pay others to do this.
OK, so this is kindergarten level, but wait.<br>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
Libertarians have no problem with voluntary contracts with people to
provide all these services and more. The keywords are 'voluntary'
and 'contract'. We do have a problem with claims that only
government can perform many of these services. We find them quite
spurious generally and unbelievable. It also leads to monopoly by
government fiat in an area of endeavor and those to less innovation
and worse products for worse prices. <br>
<br>
And we have a problem with people with a "government" label taking
money from us by force to do whatever they think is best regardless
of what we think. Most of the "services" provided with this money
are actually total disservices such as the War on [some] Drugs and
locking up nearly 1% of the adult population mainly on charges that
are not legitimately "crimes" or any business of government or
anyone else at all. <br>
<br>
<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CAO+xQEYwGMwimZ63_YcY+cUSzGkZp3pA_EF=+U7oQp+y8_+e1w@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:comic sans
ms,sans-serif;font-size:large;color:rgb(11,83,148)">
<br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:comic sans
ms,sans-serif;font-size:large;color:rgb(11,83,148)">We have a
right to hate communism based on its record in Russia, N
Korea, Cuba and others. But wait: all of these are
authoritarian-based. Aside from some hippie communes, where
has libertarian socialism been practiced? <br>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
Relatively high freedom was rampant in the US in the 19th century
and early 20th century and has been steadily eroded to where we
approach everything not explicitly permitted by government
regulators being de facto forbidden.
<blockquote
cite="mid:CAO+xQEYwGMwimZ63_YcY+cUSzGkZp3pA_EF=+U7oQp+y8_+e1w@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:comic sans
ms,sans-serif;font-size:large;color:rgb(11,83,148)">So we need
socialism, like police departments - its' just a question of
how much we will have. This group knows this, and knows that
people on the right and people on the left will never ever
agree on how much to take from individuals to benefit society.<br>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
There is nothing about providing protection against criminals that
requires the task be performed by government at all, much less that
the country be socialistic. You have heard of minarchy, haven't
you?<br>
<br>
Society is not some separate super-being a la the theories of
marxists and nazis with individuals only the tiny insignificant
cells in some super-being. Societies are sociological organizations
that continue with some modification across individual member life
times. The individual contributes to the increased viability of
that society to the extent the individual produces more value than
they consume over their lifetime. The value surplus increases the
wealth available to all members of that society be it in art,
knowledge, technology, or whatever form. What is value? It is
whatever is valued by members of the society - that which they seek
to acquire and retain or appreciate enough to exchange value for it.
<br>
<br>
Free markets where all member are free to value what they value and
exchange what they produce of value to others for those values are
completely voluntary and thus maximize value production and flow -
that is they make for a richer and better society. <br>
<br>
- samantha<br>
<br>
</body>
</html>