<div dir="ltr"><blockquote style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex" class="gmail_quote"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:11.55pt"><span style="color:rgb(31,73,125)">>>…</span>The Chinese would never have suffered the horrors of the 20th century had they the right to own guns<span style="color:rgb(31,73,125)">…</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:rgb(31,73,125)"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:11.55pt"><span style="color:rgb(31,73,125)">>…</span>Years and years and years of civilians having guns at homes, years and years and years of civilians being killed<span style="color:rgb(31,73,125)">…</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:11.55pt"><span style="color:rgb(31,73,125)"> </span></p><span style="color:rgb(31,73,125)">All
those combined would scarcely scratch the surface of the numbers of
Chinese the Japanese slew without any effective opposition.</span></blockquote><div><br></div><div><br><br>Yeah. In war times things are different. Today we are in peace times. Well.. with 30.000 persons dying for weapons every year in USA, it´s only semipeace. <br>
<br><br><br><span style="color:rgb(31,73,125)"></span><blockquote style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex" class="gmail_quote"><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:rgb(31,73,125)">>…</span>Capitalism
is the way? 16.7 million children living in food insecure households
and US having the second highest relative child poverty rates in the
developed world (2011 data. From wikipedia.)<span style="color:rgb(31,73,125)">…</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:rgb(31,73,125)"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:rgb(31,73,125)">Ja. We don’t have real capitalism in the USA.</span></p>
</div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Of course. But then, they don´t have real communism in Cuba, or Korea, or URSS. So.. Capitalism, in theory, is great, but not possible in real life. <br><br><br></div><br><blockquote style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex" class="gmail_quote">
<span style="color:rgb(31,73,125)">>…</span>Yes. Is the way for rich people<span style="color:rgb(31,73,125)">…</span><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:rgb(31,73,125)"> </span></p><span style="color:rgb(31,73,125)">Capitalism makes you rich people.</span><br>
</blockquote><div><br></div><div>I agree with good things about capitalism. It´s a good thing and a good step, because it makes humanity wealthy*. But there is a moment (and we are reaching that moment) when it is unsustainable, because it makes the rich people more rich and the poor people poorer. In my country we have a 50% of young unemployment. In yours, 16.7 millions of poor children.<br>
<br></div><div>Again, the problem of real capitalism is the same that the problem of real anarchism. I can have a weapon, I can defend myself. But my neighbour, richer than me, have more weapons and an army. And nobody can defend me from him. So he can do whatever he want.<br>
</div><div><br><blockquote style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex" class="gmail_quote"><span style="color:rgb(31,73,125)">On the contrary sir, capitalism is the path
to an economically sustainable way of life. With capitalism we get the
technology to clean our environment</span></blockquote><div><br><br></div><div>And, if nobody forces to the industry to stop pollution, we get bopals, exxon´s, Prestiges, etc. <br><br><span style="color:rgb(31,73,125)"></span><p class="MsoNormal">
<span style="color:rgb(31,73,125)"> </span></p><blockquote style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex" class="gmail_quote"><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:rgb(31,73,125)">I
had an interesting experience just yesterday. I was in Costco and they
were selling baskets handmade in Africa. We don’t have much stuff made
in Africa here. Why is that? Plenty of low cost labor, seems like a
manufacturers paradise. I looked at their literature which was being
distributed at the shelves with the African baskets. They went on and
on about their fair trade agreements and how they make sure no one is
working for 40 cents an hour. OK then, but when I studied into it I
learn that if an American distributor is buying stuff at a fair trade
prices, it doesn’t stop the Africans from subcontracting to other
Africans and paying them 40 cents an hour. If Costco is caught doing
this, Costco stands to lose. So, we seldom see African manufactured
goods. If we bought stuff from them manufactured at American minimum
wage, the Africans would murder each other for those jobs. So we seldom
buy anything from Africa other than raw materials and the occasional
phishing scam. I see no end to that. Does your view of Humanism offer a
suggestion?</span></p></blockquote><div> <blockquote style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex" class="gmail_quote"><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:rgb(31,73,125)">That isn’t the fault of the system, it is the fault of the wicked. Don’t buy from those companies. Capitalism is the way.<span class=""></span></span></p>
</blockquote></div><br></div><div>I don´t know in USA. Europe is flooded with Made In China products. My humanist solution is never buy anything from China. I can´t fight for them, because I am little. But I can stop finance them.<br>
<br></div><div>Anyway, this is just semirelated to my complaints about capitalism. The second line is more related: The wicked people who destroy nature places or kill people who is in strike in Sudamerica (I am thinking now in Coca Cola) are the ones to blame because of the wicked acts, not capitalism. But capitalism is unable to control them, so they do whatever they want.<br>
</div><div><br></div><div>From Europe, right winged american politicians, with their creationism, their death penalties, their negacionism about climate change, etc are seen as monkeys with a box full of bombs.<br></div>
<br>
</div><div>*Well... we all know that about the 75% of the money doesn´t exist... don´t we?<br></div><div> <br></div></div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Wed, May 28, 2014 at 12:17 AM, spike <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:spike66@att.net" target="_blank">spike66@att.net</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div link="blue" vlink="purple" lang="EN-US"><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""> <a href="mailto:extropy-chat-bounces@lists.extropy.org" target="_blank">extropy-chat-bounces@lists.extropy.org</a> [mailto:<a href="mailto:extropy-chat-bounces@lists.extropy.org" target="_blank">extropy-chat-bounces@lists.extropy.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Eugenio Martínez</span></p>
<div class=""><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [ExI] Be nice to leftists<u></u><u></u></div><p></p><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p><div><div><blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:11.55pt"><span style="color:#1f497d">>>…</span>The Chinese would never have suffered the horrors of the 20th century had they the right to own guns<span style="color:#1f497d">…<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:11.55pt"><span style="color:#1f497d">>…</span>Years and years and years of civilians having guns at homes, years and years and years of civilians being killed<span style="color:#1f497d">…<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:11.55pt"><span style="color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:11.55pt"><span style="color:#1f497d">All those combined would scarcely scratch the surface of the numbers of Chinese the Japanese slew without any effective opposition.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:11.55pt"><span style="color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1f497d">>…</span> Spanish civil war showed what happened with armed population during a armed conflict: They joined the army that they were in favour... and killed and raped and made a lot of revenges and lootering in every small town and every ungoverned city<span style="color:#1f497d">…<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1f497d">So don’t be Spain. Be America.<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
</blockquote></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="color:#1f497d">>…</span> In Europe only the nazis parties and maybe a rare couple more are pro-weapons<span style="color:#1f497d">…<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="color:#1f497d">That is a puzzling attitude, considering Herr Hitler’s first job was to disarm the German people. As soon as he did, there were no checks to his power grabs, none. Once only the Nazis were armed, whoever controlled the military controlled everything.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1f497d">>…</span>Capitalism is the way? 16.7 million children living in food insecure households and US having the second highest relative child poverty rates in the developed world (2011 data. From wikipedia.)<span style="color:#1f497d">…<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1f497d">Ja. We don’t have real capitalism in the USA.</span><br><br><span style="color:#1f497d">>…</span>Yes. Is the way for rich people<span style="color:#1f497d">…<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1f497d">Capitalism makes you rich people.<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <span style="color:#1f497d">>…</span>And for a ecologically unsustainable way of life<span style="color:#1f497d">…<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1f497d">On the contrary sir, capitalism is the path to an economically sustainable way of life. With capitalism we get the technology to clean our environment, as we have demonstrated in the past couple decades. Capitalism creates the wealth so that the consumer class can focus its attention on secondary needs such as ecological sustainability. People don’t worry about global warming in North Korea.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br><span style="color:#1f497d">>…</span>You could think about Coca Cola or Nestle, two of the biggest and most succesful capitalist companies. In your country they are ok. They create a lot of jobs and helps a lot of people. In other countries, therefore, that companies uses slaves, destroy irreversibily a lot of natural places etc. Same with Zara (from my country). It is leftist being against slavery? Wow. Humanism for me<span style="color:#1f497d">…<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1f497d">I had an interesting experience just yesterday. I was in Costco and they were selling baskets handmade in Africa. We don’t have much stuff made in Africa here. Why is that? Plenty of low cost labor, seems like a manufacturers paradise. I looked at their literature which was being distributed at the shelves with the African baskets. They went on and on about their fair trade agreements and how they make sure no one is working for 40 cents an hour. OK then, but when I studied into it I learn that if an American distributor is buying stuff at a fair trade prices, it doesn’t stop the Africans from subcontracting to other Africans and paying them 40 cents an hour. If Costco is caught doing this, Costco stands to lose. So, we seldom see African manufactured goods. If we bought stuff from them manufactured at American minimum wage, the Africans would murder each other for those jobs. So we seldom buy anything from Africa other than raw materials and the occasional phishing scam. I see no end to that. Does your view of Humanism offer a suggestion?<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1f497d">>…</span>You are intelligent people. You know perfectly that capitalism, as well as comunism, works very well in theory, but in a wicked way in the practice<span style="color:#1f497d">…<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1f497d">That isn’t the fault of the system, it is the fault of the wicked. Don’t buy from those companies. Capitalism is the way.<span class="HOEnZb"><font color="#888888"><u></u><u></u></font></span></span></p>
<span class="HOEnZb"><font color="#888888"><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p></font></span></div></div><span class="HOEnZb"><font color="#888888"><div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">
<span style="color:#1f497d">spike</span><u></u><u></u></p></div></div></font></span></div></div><br>_______________________________________________<br>
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