<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html charset=us-ascii"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;"><br><div><blockquote type="cite"><span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline !important;">Date: Wed, 28 May 2014 16:51:41 -0700</span><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline !important;">From: "spike" <</span><a href="mailto:spike66@att.net" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;">spike66@att.net</a><span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline !important;">></span><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline !important;">To: "'ExI chat list'" <</span><a href="mailto:extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;">extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</a><span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline !important;">></span><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline !important;">Subject: Re: [ExI] Be nice to leftists</span><br></blockquote><div><br></div><br><blockquote type="cite"><span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline !important;">Still not clear what you are arguing. </span><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><br><span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline !important;">Capitalism encourages competition. Competition breeds excellence. Excellence generates wealth. Wealth promotes capitalism. </span><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><br><span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline !important;">Upward spiral. Excellent.</span><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Only, when capitalism is well controlled this can happen. Otherwise we get:</div><div><br></div><div>Capitalism forms monopolies to maximise profits. Monopolies breed incompetence. Incompetence must protect themselves through the application of force. Force promotes oligarchies.</div><div><br></div><div>Downward spiral. Uh oh!</div><div><br></div><div>I can see the positive potential in well regulated capitalism, can you see this negative potential in unregulated capitalism?</div><div><br></div><div>Money is just a tool, not the end in itself. A lot of 'western' thought is influenced by Calvinist/protestant thought which basically states that financial or worldly success is a tangible sign of 'God's blessing'. As a generally scientifically minded group we should acknowledge this influence and ask ourselves questions from first principles.</div><div><br></div><div>Such as:</div><div><br></div><div>Does money have any moral value in itself?</div><div><br></div><div>No. Seems obvious, but if you disagree could you please answer the question: "How does money contain moral value?"</div><div><br></div><div>Does the use of money have any moral value?</div><div><br></div><div>Yes, because money is a trust symbol. Trust can be upheld or betrayed. Trust can help you work together on problems too big for one person, or it's systemic betrayal can lead whole societies to collapse.</div><div><br></div><div>Money is only a tool.</div><div><br></div><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;">?If you show your weapon, you are going to be shooted, because the robber doesn?t want to risk his life?<br></blockquote><br><span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline !important;">Ja, my point exactly. We have places in America where guns are illegal, such as Chicago. The gun death risk there is thru the roof. Solution: don?t go there. Go where guns are legal. Robbers don?t like to risk their lives; they go where it is safer for them, places where there are few guns. So go where there are many guns; it?s safer for you there. Bumper sticker: Where guns are outlawed, only outlaws have guns.</span><br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Spike, to pretend that violence in Chicago is linked positively with stricter gun registration is ludicrous. Ever heard of a guy named Al Capone? That was significantly before Chicago's attempts to control gun ownership. Also, at no point were all guns completely illegal in Chicago. ( <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_laws_in_Illinois">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_laws_in_Illinois</a> )</div></div><br><div>For the record I am a 2nd amendment supporter as stated in the constitution. This is not an unfettered right as many supreme court decisions have made clear. The framers intention was to provide the population with the legal framework to form militias capable of resisting the state if a tyranny should form. Capitalism is fully able to form a tyranny, please refer to the history of the East India Company for one (but not the only) example.</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>Best regards,</div><div><br></div><div>Omar Rahman</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div></body></html>