<html><body><div style="color:#000; background-color:#fff; font-family:garamond, new york, times, serif;font-size:18pt"><div><font face="Times New Roman" size="3">
</font><span style='font-family: "Times New Roman","serif"; font-size: 14pt;'>Dennis
May <dennislmay@yahoo.com>, 14/6/2014 7:06 AM:<br style="mso-special-character: line-break;">
<br style="mso-special-character: line-break;">
</span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style='color: black; font-family: "Times New Roman","serif"; font-size: 14pt;'>It would seem that the need for exponentially growing </span></div><div><font face="Times New Roman" size="3">
</font><span style='color: black; font-family: "Times New Roman","serif"; font-size: 14pt;'>overhead to correct for noise introduces an even larger</span></div><div><font face="Times New Roman" size="3">
</font><span style='color: black; font-family: "Times New Roman","serif"; font-size: 14pt;'>exponentially growing overhead to watch for potential</span></div><div><font face="Times New Roman" size="3">
</font><span style='color: black; font-family: "Times New Roman","serif"; font-size: 14pt;'>virus-like information [coded in the form of white noise?] </span></div><div><font face="Times New Roman" size="3">
</font><span style='color: black; font-family: "Times New Roman","serif"; font-size: 14pt;'>whose purpose might be nothing more than to introduce</span></div><div><font face="Times New Roman" size="3">
</font><span style='color: black; font-family: "Times New Roman","serif"; font-size: 14pt;'>factors generating more noise in the system.</span></div><div><font face="Times New Roman" size="3">
<br></font></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style='color: black; font-family: "Times New Roman","serif"; font-size: 14pt;'>Anders Sandberg <anders@aleph.se>, 14/6/2014 8:12 AM:</span></div><div><font face="Times New Roman" size="3">
<br></font></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style='font-family: "Times New Roman","serif"; font-size: 14pt;'>There
is a general question here that I think is cool and </span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style='font-family: "Times New Roman","serif"; font-size: 14pt;'>interesting:
*what is the limiting amount of resources </span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style='font-family: "Times New Roman","serif"; font-size: 14pt;'>needed
to resist parasites and predators*? The human </span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style='font-family: "Times New Roman","serif"; font-size: 14pt;'>body
uses around 20% of metabolic energy to run the </span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style='font-family: "Times New Roman","serif"; font-size: 14pt;'>immune
system (about the same amount as the brain). </span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style='font-family: "Times New Roman","serif"; font-size: 14pt;'>Governments
spend a few percent of GDP on military, </span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style='font-family: "Times New Roman","serif"; font-size: 14pt;'>and
a few more on police and intelligence. PCs spend </span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style='font-family: "Times New Roman","serif"; font-size: 14pt;'>perhaps
one out of four cores on anti-virus and firewalls. </span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style='font-family: "Times New Roman","serif"; font-size: 14pt;'>Some
rapidly reproducing organisms have lousy immune </span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style='font-family: "Times New Roman","serif"; font-size: 14pt;'>systems
since it is possible to reproduce faster than they </span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style='font-family: "Times New Roman","serif"; font-size: 14pt;'>are
getting killed (but even bacteria need caspases; 80% </span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style='font-family: "Times New Roman","serif"; font-size: 14pt;'>of
bacteria in the ocean end their individual lives because </span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style='font-family: "Times New Roman","serif"; font-size: 14pt;'>they
lyse due to bacteriophages!)</span></div><div><font face="Times New Roman" size="3">
<br></font></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style='font-family: "Times New Roman","serif"; font-size: 14pt;'>Are
these numbers generic, or are there other ways of </span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style='font-family: "Times New Roman","serif"; font-size: 14pt;'>estimating
things?</span></div><div><font face="Times New Roman" size="3">
<br></font></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style='font-family: "Times New Roman","serif"; font-size: 14pt;'>*****</span></div><div><font face="Times New Roman" size="3">
<br></font></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style='font-family: "Times New Roman","serif"; font-size: 14pt;'>The
overhead required to survive all forms of parasitism,</span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style='font-family: "Times New Roman","serif"; font-size: 14pt;'>predation,
and internal competition from this moment till</span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style='font-family: "Times New Roman","serif"; font-size: 14pt;'>the
final state you wish to consider is the question. If you</span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style='font-family: "Times New Roman","serif"; font-size: 14pt;'>take
the biological analogy individuals do not survive,</span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style='font-family: "Times New Roman","serif"; font-size: 14pt;'>species
last a little longer, and life from an common origin</span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style='font-family: "Times New Roman","serif"; font-size: 14pt;'>lasts
longer still. Undirected biology expends a great deal</span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style='font-family: "Times New Roman","serif"; font-size: 14pt;'>of
energy in fending off natural parasitism and predation</span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style='font-family: "Times New Roman","serif"; font-size: 14pt;'>from
unsophisticated sources. Assuming the existence of</span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style='font-family: "Times New Roman","serif"; font-size: 14pt;'>vast
intelligences requires strategies able to deal with </span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style='font-family: "Times New Roman","serif"; font-size: 14pt;'>competition
in all forms from other vast intelligences. The</span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style='font-family: "Times New Roman","serif"; font-size: 14pt;'>first
given assumption is that you or other groups will be </span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style='font-family: "Times New Roman","serif"; font-size: 14pt;'>left
alone long enough to develop.</span></div><div><font face="Times New Roman" size="3">
<br></font></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style='font-family: "Times New Roman","serif"; font-size: 14pt;'>*****</span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style='color: black; font-family: "Times New Roman","serif"; font-size: 14pt;'><br></span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style='color: black; font-family: "Times New Roman","serif"; font-size: 14pt;'>Anders Sandberg <anders@aleph.se>, 14/6/2014 8:12 AM:</span></div><div><font face="Times New Roman" size="3">
<br></font></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style='font-family: "Times New Roman","serif"; font-size: 14pt;'>Hmm,
what assumptions are you adding here? The earlier </span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style='font-family: "Times New Roman","serif"; font-size: 14pt;'>analysis was just in terms of
thermodynamics rather than </span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style='font-family: "Times New Roman","serif"; font-size: 14pt;'>having an adversary around. Adversaries change the
situation </span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style='font-family: "Times New Roman","serif"; font-size: 14pt;'>rather deeply. </span></div><div><font face="Times New Roman" size="3">
<br></font></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style='font-family: "Times New Roman","serif"; font-size: 14pt;'>*****</span></div><div><font face="Times New Roman" size="3">
<br></font></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style='font-family: "Times New Roman","serif"; font-size: 14pt;'>Questions
concerning the Fermi Paradox should include the variable of</span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style='font-family: "Times New Roman","serif"; font-size: 14pt;'>adversaries
at every juncture since all of biology is known to deal with </span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style='font-family: "Times New Roman","serif"; font-size: 14pt;'>the
issue continually from the earliest systems forward.</span></div><div><font face="Times New Roman" size="3">
<br></font></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style='color: black; font-family: "Times New Roman","serif"; font-size: 14pt;'>Anders Sandberg <anders@aleph.se>, 14/6/2014 8:12 AM:</span></div><div><font face="Times New Roman" size="3">
<br></font></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style='font-family: "Times New Roman","serif"; font-size: 14pt;'>“Reversible
computing is extremely fragile: it might be that game theory </span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style='font-family: "Times New Roman","serif"; font-size: 14pt;'>leads
to quirky solutions.”</span></div><div><font face="Times New Roman" size="3">
<br></font></div><div><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><br></font></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style='font-family: "Times New Roman","serif"; font-size: 14pt;'>There
are presently dozens of competing physical implementations of </span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style='font-family: "Times New Roman","serif"; font-size: 14pt;'>quantum
computing each with slightly differing degrees of fragility.</span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style='font-family: "Times New Roman","serif"; font-size: 14pt;'>All
physical qubit implementations to date are too fragile to produce </span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style='font-family: "Times New Roman","serif"; font-size: 14pt;'>useful
computations. Opinion on how much overhead for error correction</span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style='font-family: "Times New Roman","serif"; font-size: 14pt;'>will
be required varies widely. Game theory on how to produce useful</span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style='font-family: "Times New Roman","serif"; font-size: 14pt;'>results
in such fragile systems could be an immense computational </span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style='font-family: "Times New Roman","serif"; font-size: 14pt;'>project
in and of itself.</span></div><div><font face="Times New Roman" size="3">
<br></font></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style='font-family: "Times New Roman","serif"; font-size: 14pt;'>The
issue of castles versus cannonballs was important in early human</span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style='font-family: "Times New Roman","serif"; font-size: 14pt;'>evolution
once the ability to work and communicate as a group, run </span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style='font-family: "Times New Roman","serif"; font-size: 14pt;'>for
long periods of time and carry a fifteen foot spear enabled a medium</span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style='font-family: "Times New Roman","serif"; font-size: 14pt;'>sized
animal to hunt all land animals regardless of size.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Millions of</span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style='font-family: "Times New Roman","serif"; font-size: 14pt;'>years
of evolution favoring the strategy of large size were undone - not</span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style='font-family: "Times New Roman","serif"; font-size: 14pt;'>because
of food restriction due to reduced niche, an asteroid impact or </span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style='font-family: "Times New Roman","serif"; font-size: 14pt;'>volcanoes
but because of a new strategy opened up by increased</span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style='font-family: "Times New Roman","serif"; font-size: 14pt;'>computational
capabilities. Once super-intelligences are in competition</span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style='font-family: "Times New Roman","serif"; font-size: 14pt;'>I
would expect things to get very complicated concerning the continued</span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style='font-family: "Times New Roman","serif"; font-size: 14pt;'>advantage
of “size” versus many other variables becoming enabled.</span></div><div><font face="Times New Roman" size="3">
<br></font></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style='font-family: "Times New Roman","serif"; font-size: 14pt;'>Dennis
May</span></div><div><font face="Times New Roman" size="3">
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