<html><head><meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body dir="auto"><div style="-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto;"></div><blockquote type="cite"><font color="#000000"><span style="-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);">On Tuesday, September 30, 2014 3:34 PM, Kelly Anderson <<a href="mailto:kellycoinguy@gmail.com" x-apple-data-detectors="true" x-apple-data-detectors-type="link" x-apple-data-detectors-result="1">kellycoinguy@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br></span></font></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><font color="#000000"><span style="-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);">If you want evidence of my hypothesis, then you can read the<br></span></font></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><font color="#000000"><span style="-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);">book. If you like I have an MP3 of it...</span></font></blockquote><span style="-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);"><br>Thanks, but I'll look for it and add it to my list. The problem is not availability of the book as such but availability of time and attention to read it. :) (I'm not complaining, but I read about two books a month and listen to another two to four in addition to a lot of other reading and listening. If you saw my paper or electronic stack, you'd see it might take years to get to it.:)<br><br></span><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><font color="#000000"><span style="-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);">For me, as you probably know, a libertarian who is not an<br></span></font></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><font color="#000000"><span style="-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);">anarchist is inconsistent.</span></font></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><font color="#000000"><span style="-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);"><br></span></font></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><font color="#000000"><span style="-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);">The Leviathan argues that full anarchy leads to unproductive<br></span></font></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><font color="#000000"><span style="-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);">violent vendetta circles. I don't think we want to go back<br></span></font></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><font color="#000000"><span style="-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);">to that.</span></font></blockquote><span style="-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);"><br>That's if you accept the logic and evidence there. On the former, naturally, anarchist libertarians don't accept the logic of Hobbes argument (for a fairly extensive state). On the latter, the evidence seems very questionable with Hobbes mainly relying on his view of civil wars and such.<br><br></span><blockquote type="cite"><font color="#000000"><span style="-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);">Pinker makes similar arguments. Maybe this is utilitarian,<br></span></font></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><font color="#000000"><span style="-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);">but damn it, I don't want to have to worry about being<br></span></font></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><font color="#000000"><span style="-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);">murdered every time I leave the house.</span></font></blockquote><span style="-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);"><br>You have to worry about that now -- unless you've solved the problem of being murdered completely. It's debatable whether you have to worry about less because we live under a government. It also seems to vary much by time and place and not by government. For instance, most of the US has a very low murder rate that seems to have little to do with government while some nations with less policing -- the very thing to prevent violent crime -- have even lower murder rates. Yet nations with more policing have a higher murder rate. (And, to be sure, in the US, it's a mix-up. Some heavily policed areas have very high violent crime and murder rates. In other cases, such as the Old West, there seemed to not have been a very high murder rate until government came in -- the army in particular -- which allowed people to shift from trade to raid: from trading with the Plains Indians and others to simply having them killed or pushed aside for heir lands and resources.)<br><br>By the way, I did read Pinker's book and actually read, before his book came out, some his sources, such as _War Before Civilization_. I don't think his case for government -- Pinker accepts the Hobbesian argument -- is as slam dunk as he makes it. (No surprise there!:) I actually touted the book amongst libertarians because I believe, regardless of how they react to his positions and arguments, I think it will shape the debate for the next decade or so. Seems my prediction is coming true. (Don't worry, I've predicted wrong far more than I've predicted right.:)<br><br></span><blockquote type="cite"><font color="#000000"><span style="-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);">The whole purpose of the patent system is to propose a trade.</span></font></blockquote><span style="-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);"><br>That's the usual justification. You have to see how well it lives up to that and whether that is a good justification regardless. On the latter, I trust, you would accept an <br><br>argument for chattel slavery because, well, it's for picking cotton and we do love cotton so much, so why not have slaves to pick it? :)<br><br></span><blockquote type="cite"><font color="#000000"><span style="-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);">Yes, you do have infinite ownership of your intellectual<br></span></font></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><font color="#000000"><span style="-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);">property under trade secret law. However, to promote the <br></span></font></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><font color="#000000"><span style="-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);">reproduction of productive memes, we will allow you to<br></span></font></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><font color="#000000"><span style="-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);">have EXCLUSIVITY on your idea for a period of time if<br></span></font></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><font color="#000000"><span style="-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);">you will SHARE the idea with others.<br></span></font></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><font color="#000000"><span style="-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);">We do not know how to build a Stradivarius violin today<br></span></font></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><font color="#000000"><span style="-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);">because he was protected ONLY by trade secret, and not<br></span></font></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><font color="#000000"><span style="-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);">by patent law.</span></font></blockquote><span style="-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);"><br>Actually, you're only proposing another form of intellectual property protection here. One might argue, on libertarian grounds, that one can have an expressed contractual relationship that prevents parties to that contract from revealing a trade secret. But that would only be binding on parties to it -- not to outsiders. Also, this would not <br><br>apply in the case that an outside party comes up with the idea, invention, whatever independently. For example, if you invent, say, a new drug independently of some drug company and you have no fiduciary relationship to that company, there'd be, under this view, no recourse to said company saying you stole their trade secret.<br><br>Regarding the Stradivarius case, it's an open question what he might have done whether there were patents back then. Of course, the best case -- presuming we value being able to build Strads over the costs of a patent system (or the the injustice of it, if you don't believe in intellectual property) -- would be that he files all his secrets and these are known for posterity. It's definitely an argument in your favor, but one has to be careful it's not like, "Had we offered Stradivarius a trillion dollars today, he'd have shared his techniques, so it's time to grab a trillion dollars from the populace so that they few of us who enjoy Strads can have our way." It doesn't seem like a very libertarian argument, no?<br><br></span><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><font color="#000000"><span style="-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);">I'm not sure that would prevent much here. And the<br></span></font></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><font color="#000000"><span style="-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);">duration of a copyright is much longer.</span></font></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><font color="#000000"><span style="-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);"><br></span></font></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><font color="#000000"><span style="-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);">The difference is that copyright protection is very<br></span></font></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><font color="#000000"><span style="-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);">narrow. You can't outright copy my stuff. Patent law<br></span></font></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><font color="#000000"><span style="-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);">protects ANYONE doing the same thing by SIMILAR means.<br></span></font></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><font color="#000000"><span style="-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);">It is much broader, and more open to being used for<br></span></font></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><font color="#000000"><span style="-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);">evil ends by malicious lawyers.</span></font></blockquote><span style="-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);"><br>I think malicious or even non-malicious lawyers have tried to widen the latitude of copyright law enough too.<br><br></span><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><font color="#000000"><span style="-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);">Litigation around copyrights now can be all over the<br></span></font></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><font color="#000000"><span style="-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);">place, with things like song writers being sued for<br></span></font></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><font color="#000000"><span style="-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);">having a melody similar to another song. Doesn't<br></span></font></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><font color="#000000"><span style="-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);">always succeed, of course, and I'm not saying you<br></span></font></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><font color="#000000"><span style="-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);">must either agree with all aspects of current<br></span></font></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><font color="#000000"><span style="-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);">intellectual property law or embrace an anti-IP<br></span></font></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><font color="#000000"><span style="-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);">position.</span></font></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><font color="#000000"><span style="-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);"><br></span></font></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><font color="#000000"><span style="-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);">It's not perfect either.</span></font></blockquote><span style="-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);"><br>Sure. Again, not asking for perfection. And I don't think you are either. Yet it seems the argument is not as strong as you make it to be -- or, to be fair, isn't persuasive to <br><br>me.<br><br></span><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><font color="#000000"><span style="-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);">and in that case, I will side with Benjamin Franklin,<br></span></font></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><font color="#000000"><span style="-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);">who has sufficient libertarian and capitalistic<br></span></font></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><font color="#000000"><span style="-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);">cajones for my purposes.</span></font></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><font color="#000000"><span style="-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);"><br></span></font></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><font color="#000000"><span style="-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);">This is an alien way of looking at things to me. I don't<br></span></font></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><font color="#000000"><span style="-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);">seek out a figure from history to rally around. I try<br></span></font></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><font color="#000000"><span style="-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);">to see if an argument has merit, regardless of who made<br></span></font></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><font color="#000000"><span style="-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);">it. In any case, Franklin was somewhat against patents,<br></span></font></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><font color="#000000"><span style="-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);">wasn't he? I've heard that he didn't patent any of his<br></span></font></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><font color="#000000"><span style="-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);">inventions, but I'm not well read on his life.</span></font></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><font color="#000000"><span style="-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);"><br></span></font></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><font color="#000000"><span style="-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);">He didn't patent SOME of his inventions. The lightning rod,<br></span></font></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><font color="#000000"><span style="-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);">for example, because he was more interested in preventing<br></span></font></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><font color="#000000"><span style="-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);">house fires than making more money. Could have had <br></span></font></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><font color="#000000"><span style="-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);">something to do with the fact that he was already one<br></span></font></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><font color="#000000"><span style="-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);">of the richest men in America at the time.<br></span></font></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><font color="#000000"><span style="-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);"><br></span></font></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><font color="#000000"><span style="-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);">My recollection though is that Franklin supported the<br></span></font></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><font color="#000000"><span style="-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);">idea of having a patent system. I am not 100% sure of<br></span></font></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><font color="#000000"><span style="-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);">this, and my Internet isn't working properly at the<br></span></font></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><font color="#000000"><span style="-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);">moment so I'll have to double check this fact at some<br></span></font></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><font color="#000000"><span style="-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);">future time.</span></font></blockquote><span style="-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);"><br>Then I'm unsure why you raised him up as an example. (And I'm not even sure he could be viewed as even a proto-libertarian (relative to others of his times) from my scant readings of his political views.) I'd been under the impression Franklin wrote some well reasoned pamphlet on the issue that you were referring to. To me, this doesn't appear to be the case. He invented a lot of stuff, dabbled in many things (in some really ingenius ways), but I don't recall him presenting an earth-shattering case for intellectual property. I certainly don't think an anti-IP libertarian is going to quake in their shoes at the mention of Franklin's name. :) Not to mention, again, just because someone popular or famous or considered an intellectual predecessor holds a view doesn't mean one must accept it.<br><br>Regards,<br><br>Dan<br>Preview (or don't:) my latest Kindle story, "Born With Teeth," at:<br><a href="http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00N72FBA2" x-apple-data-detectors="true" x-apple-data-detectors-type="link" x-apple-data-detectors-result="2">http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00N72FBA2</a></span></body></html>