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Hello Folks,<br>
<br>
Tomaz, William, and many others, it seems to me from what they say,
still don't understand what a redness quale is or is not. Nor do
they understand what zombie glutamate is or is not. Maybe they have
red the paper:<br>
<br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Vxfbgfm8XIqkmC5Vus7wBb982JMOA8XMrTZQ4smkiyI/edit">https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Vxfbgfm8XIqkmC5Vus7wBb982JMOA8XMrTZQ4smkiyI/edit</a><br>
<br>
But if they have, I see no evidence that they understand what it is
about.<br>
<br>
Stathis, it seems to me, at least understands what a redness quale
is, and us not. But he is still missing the most important part of
what I am trying to say, as proven when he states:<br>
<br>
> Brent believes that consciousness is not due to the system
structure but rather to the substrate.<br>
<br>
this is absolutely wrong. I fully accept that it is possible that
the system structure may be responsible for an elemental redness
quale we can experience. What I am describing is, how can you prove
to everyone, qualitatively, experimentally, whether it is system
structure, some kind of a particular material, like glutamate, some
kind of quantum weirdness, or maybe some kind of recursively complex
system that enables a 'redness quality to arise'. I am open to any
of these as being possible theories that science is about to prove
correct using the qualitative methods I am describing. What I am
describing is how do you theoretically bride the qualitative
information gap, so you can prove who has it right, and who has it
wrong. All I am saying is that whatever is responsible for us
experiencing a redness qaule, is detectable, by doing the same
technique that our brain does, when we are able to detect that we
have redness knowledge vs greenness knowledge. All I am doing is
describing the qualitative theory that will enable that, by getting
around the quale interpretation problem.<br>
<br>
The only reason I don't use a system theory, in the idealized 3
color world example, as required to bridge the qualitative
information gap with a falsifiable theory, is because nobody has
described any possible falsifiable way, which a system could cause a
redness quale to arise. Once you provide that, I will be happy to
use that in the falsifiable idealized effing theory example to
better communicate to you how your belief that there is a 'hard'
problem is completely wrong.<br>
<br>
Bill W asked:<br>
<br>
"I am not saying that it is a waste of time, I just want to know
what you intend to do with the answers?"<br>
<br>
Right now, the prediction is that all of theoretical physical
science is nothing but qualitatively blind zombie science.
Theoretical physical scientists are spending billion of $$$ on
things like the large hadron collier, and getting almost nothing.
Yet they are completely missing the qualitative nature of physics,
just like the brilliant scientist Mary that hasn't stepped out of
the black and white zombie room yet, and experienced, for herself,
what real glutamate is like and how it is different from zombie
glutamate.<br>
<br>
In my opinion, the greatest discovery in physics, ever, will be the
discovery of its qualitative natures. It will include the
realization that all of our science, to date, is just zombie
science. You don't need to spend billions of dollars to achieve
that greatest discovery in physicists ever. You just need to answer
the question you are asking, so people will realize the significance
and importance of knowing that a sunset, likely has a qualitative
nature about it. And your knowledge of the sunset, as phenomenally
glorious as it is, has nothing to do with that.<br>
<br>
More than any other discovery in physics, discovering nature's
qualitative properties. so we can do more than zombie science, so we
can do qualitative science of redness, will we be able to finally
answer the questions: What are we, what are spirits, what is
consciousness, and most importantly, what is it all qualitatively
like.<br>
<br>
And if you can't see why that is important, then, oh well, I have no
hope for you, and you ability to understand what uploaded Godly
consciousness could be qualitatively like, or basically what heaven
will be like, in the near future. Uploads are going to be a lot
more than zombie uploads.<br>
<br>
Brent Allsop<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 2/14/2015 9:40 AM, William Flynn
Wallace wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CAO+xQEZ_gS+Yx2nDo++-OJc1cL3L4E=VK7ZhrjE4n_Bh4JRZbg@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:comic sans
ms,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0)">Here is my
question: even if you could identify the exact electrical and
chemical goings-on in the brain when a person experiences some
sensation, what exactly will you know? How will it help you
know something else? We know, for ex., that the amygdala is
involved in emotions, particularly anger. How does that help
us understand anger and how to deal with it? I am not saying
that it is a waste of time, I just want to know what you
intend to do with the answers?<br>
<br>
bill w<br>
</div>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Sat, Feb 14, 2015 at 9:57 AM,
Stathis Papaioannou <span dir="ltr"><<a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:stathisp@gmail.com"
target="_blank">stathisp@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div class="HOEnZb">
<div class="h5"><br>
<br>
On Sunday, February 15, 2015, John Clark <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:johnkclark@gmail.com" target="_blank">johnkclark@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr">
<div class="gmail_extra">
<div class="gmail_quote">On Sat, Feb 14, 2015
Stathis Papaioannou <span dir="ltr"><<a
moz-do-not-send="true">stathisp@gmail.com</a>></span>
wrote:</div>
<div class="gmail_quote"><br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0
0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc
solid;padding-left:1ex">> Brent believes
that consciousness is not due to the system
structure but rather to the substrate.</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>If computers with the same logical
structure but with different substrates (say
vacuums tubes, Germanium transistors and
Silicon transistors) all came up with
different answers when you multiplied 27 by 54
I'd have a lot more confidence that this
theory is correct, but they don't, they all
come up with 1458. Actually calling this a
theory is giving it too much credit as there
is no experiment that can be performed to
prove it wrong, or even a experiment that
would allow you to learn a little more about
it. </div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>There are experiments that can be performed - try
a physically different, but <span></span>chemically
identical substrate using alternative isotopes. It would
work just the same, proving that working just the same is
what is important, and not what the parts are made of.</div>
<span class="HOEnZb"><font color="#888888"><br>
<br>
-- <br>
Stathis Papaioannou<br>
</font></span><br>
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</blockquote>
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