<div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_extra"><div class="gmail_quote">On Tue, Sep 29, 2015 at 3:53 PM, William Flynn Wallace <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:foozler83@gmail.com" target="_blank">foozler83@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_extra"><div class="gmail_quote">On Tue, Sep 29, 2015 at 3:26 PM, Dan TheBookMan <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:danust2012@gmail.com" target="_blank">danust2012@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_extra"><div style="font-family:comic sans ms,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span>On Tue, Sep 29, 2015 at 12:21 PM, William Flynn Wallace <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:foozler83@gmail.com" target="_blank">foozler83@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div style="font-family:comic sans ms,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0)">Yes, it has a happy ending, if you like wide scale murder from a thug.<br><br></div><div style="font-family:comic sans ms,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0)">Odysseus is a thug: raider of villages, murderer, raper, thief.<br><br></div><div style="font-family:comic sans ms,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0)">This is a hero?<br></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div></span><div>By whose moral standards? I think that of that time, he was likely viewed as a hero -- a very different kind of hero too since he used his wits rather than brute force -- to succeed. And the happy ending is he gets back, despite a god being against him and all the trials, manages to save his wife and house.<br><br></div><div>Note, too, that this seems an extra-esthetics question: what's heroic or moral is not determined by art but something removed from it. Of course, someone like Ayn Rand might argue that the two are closely tied together. She believed art is supposed to project the moral ideal. You might look at her esthetics, since some of what she says seems to go along with your tastes.<br><br></div><div>And is a hero -- in the sense of some titan, moral or otherwise -- necessary to have a happy ending? If the protagonists win in the end and she or he is not too bad and the endeavor is not too repugnant to your moral sensibilities -- in other words, it's not about a a sociopath wanting to burn puppies alive getting his happy ending because he thwarts animals lovers to live his dream -- then isn't that a happy ending? You know, like in a rom-com?<br></div><div><br></div> One should not apply current morality to what is going on the Illiad
or Odyssey. (Anders)<br><br></div></div></div></blockquote><div style="font-family:comic sans ms,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0)">Come on, Anders, 'should not'? I don't like 'should'. It restricts me unnecessarily. </div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Well, if you want to understand why others might think Odysseus was a hero and the epic based on his story is one with a happy ending, especially if those others lived thousands of years ago and were members of a culture very different from ours, then it might not be helpful to apply contemporary moral standards as if they illuminate. You think of Odysseus as a thug, but that wouldn't have been so for Homer's ancient audience in my understanding. They would see him as offering up a moral example as well as his story being entertaining and would likely be rooting for him against his myriad enemies, including the Suitors. At least, this is my understanding.<br><br></div><div>(It's interesting, too, watching a recent TV version of Shakespeare's "Henry V" how I would agree with many of your moral intuitions here about Henry V. The titular character in the play goes pillaging and destroying across France because he's been slighted and has some claims to the lands. This gives him the right to threaten to destroy cities and murder with abandon. But I can step back from this and see how Shakespeare's initial audience might not have agreed with my views.)<br></div><div><br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_extra"><div class="gmail_quote"><div style="font-family:comic sans ms,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0)"> I am supposed to apply other peoples' standards, not my own? O killed all of this household staff, did he not? This is happy?<br></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>In the context of the epic, though, those people were bad people. The staff he killed were siding with the Suitors -- the Suitors who were merely trying to grab power in Ithaca. Also, they would've have forcibly married his wife and likely have killed his son. Even if you feel Odysseus was a thug, they were no better. But in the context of the story, they're supposedly much worse. (Another moral problem for me is a god blinds many of them to their hubris -- similar to how the god of the Jews blinds the pharaoh to his hubris, helping to seal his fate. Why not simply let them see the error of their ways and change? Well, would we remember such an alternative epic? Imagine "King Lear" rewritten so that Lear doesn't make his mistakes and is a bit wiser and less angry. It might please you as a lover of happy endings, but it be boring as hell.)<br></div><div> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_extra"><div class="gmail_quote"><div style="font-family:comic sans ms,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0)"></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div style="font-family:comic sans ms,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0);display:inline">OK, happy if you are a thug without a conscience. Surely you can agree that he is that by our standards. Was Torquemada a great Christian by the standards of the day?<br></div></blockquote><div><br><div style="font-family:comic sans ms,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0);display:inline">Heroes can have tragic endings. Jesus for one. I am sure a Christian would argue that it was the fulfillment of a prophecy and was wonderful, but to me it's tragic.</div> </div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>To Christians, of course, Jesus is resurrected, so there's a big difference there: he ultimately wins.<br><br></div><div>Heroes can indeed have tragic endings, though the reason I raised up the example of this epic was that it's conventionally considered to have a happy ending: despite all his troubles, the protagonist succeeds in the end. He gets home, defeats his enemies, and wins in the end. Not so for many of his companions and colleagues. (Think of what happens to Achilles, Ajax, Agamemnon, and Menelaus. Of course, the last survives and gets home earlier, but it doesn't look like all's well in his house.)<br></div><div> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_extra"><div class="gmail_quote"><div><div style="font-family:comic sans ms,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0);display:inline">By the way, Ilium and Olympos, by Dan Simmons</div> <div style="font-family:comic sans ms,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0);display:inline">, follow the Trojan war, sort of, and are fine fantasy/scifi. <br></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Thanks for the recommendation. I really enjoyed Simmons' _The Song of Kali_. <br></div></div><br><div class="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr"><div><div style="line-height:normal"><span style="line-height:20px">Regards,</span></div><div><div style="line-height:normal"><span style="line-height:20px"><br clear="none"></span></div></div><div><div><div style="line-height:normal"><span style="line-height:20px">Dan</span></div></div><div style="line-height:normal"><span> Sample my Kindle books via:</span></div><div style="line-height:normal"><a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" href="http://www.amazon.com/Dan-Ust/e/B00J6HPX8M/" target="_blank"><font color="#000000">http://www.amazon.com/Dan-Ust/e/B00J6HPX8M/</font></a></div></div></div></div></div>
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