<div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:comic sans ms,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><br></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Tue, Sep 29, 2015 at 3:26 PM, Dan TheBookMan <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:danust2012@gmail.com" target="_blank">danust2012@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_extra"><div class="gmail_quote"><span class="">On Tue, Sep 29, 2015 at 12:21 PM, William Flynn Wallace <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:foozler83@gmail.com" target="_blank">foozler83@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div style="font-family:comic sans ms,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0)">Yes, it has a happy ending, if you like wide scale murder from a thug.<br><br></div><div style="font-family:comic sans ms,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0)">Odysseus is a thug: raider of villages, murderer, raper, thief.<br><br></div><div style="font-family:comic sans ms,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0)">This is a hero?<br></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div></span><div>By whose moral standards? I think that of that time, he was likely viewed as a hero -- a very different kind of hero too since he used his wits rather than brute force -- to succeed. And the happy ending is he gets back, despite a god being against him and all the trials, manages to save his wife and house.<br><br></div><div>Note, too, that this seems an extra-esthetics question: what's heroic or moral is not determined by art but something removed from it. Of course, someone like Ayn Rand might argue that the two are closely tied together. She believed art is supposed to project the moral ideal. You might look at her esthetics, since some of what she says seems to go along with your tastes.<br><br></div><div>And is a hero -- in the sense of some titan, moral or otherwise -- necessary to have a happy ending? If the protagonists win in the end and she or he is not too bad and the endeavor is not too repugnant to your moral sensibilities -- in other words, it's not about a a sociopath wanting to burn puppies alive getting his happy ending because he thwarts animals lovers to live his dream -- then isn't that a happy ending? You know, like in a rom-com?<br></div><div><br></div><div>Regards,<br><br></div><div>Dan<br></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:comic sans ms,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0)">
One should not apply current morality to what is going on the Illiad
or Odyssey. (Anders)<br><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:comic sans ms,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0)">Come on, Anders, 'should not'? I don't like 'should'. It restricts me unnecessarily. I am supposed to apply other peoples' standards, not my own? O killed all of this household staff, did he not? This is happy?<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:comic sans ms,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0);display:inline">OK, happy if you are a thug without a conscience. Surely you can agree that he is that by our standards. Was Torquemada a great Christian by the standards of the day?<br></div></blockquote><div><br><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:comic sans ms,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0);display:inline">Heroes can have tragic endings. Jesus for one. I am sure a Christian would argue that it was the fulfillment of a prophecy and was wonderful, but to me it's tragic.</div> </div><div><br><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:comic sans ms,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0);display:inline">By the way, Ilium and Olympos, by Dan Simmons</div> <div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:comic sans ms,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0);display:inline">, follow the Trojan war, sort of, and are fine fantasy/scifi. <br><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:comic sans ms,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0);display:inline">bill w</div></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:comic sans ms,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0);display:inline"></div><br>_______________________________________________<br>
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