<div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif">On Mon, Oct 19, 2015 at 12:53 PM, rex </span><span dir="ltr" style="font-family:arial,sans-serif"><<a href="mailto:rex@nosyntax.net" target="_blank">rex@nosyntax.net</a>></span><span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif"> wrote:</span><br></div><div class="gmail_extra"><div class="gmail_quote"><br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"></blockquote><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline">> </div>But you have yet to provide a single example of selection driving a species<br>
to extinction. Anything less than that is mere hand-waving -- a popular<br>
activity in the social "sciences" -- IMO.<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline"> </div>No, the Irish elk is NOT even a quasi-established example,</blockquote><div><br></div><div><font size="4"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline">If extinct species are not a example or even a quasi-example then it is not entirely clear what you do want. Experiments? </div> </font></div><div><br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline">> </div>Obviously, extant species cannot serve as examples of selection<br>
driving a species to extinction.<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline"><font size="4">And obviously experiments can not be done on extinct species, so all I need to do is find a species that is neither extinct nor extant. How hard can that be? </font></div> </div><div><br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline">><font size="4">></font></div><font size="4"> And I would be astounded if the authors of any of those theories were<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline"> </div></font><font size="4"><span><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline"></div>foolish enough to suggest that the size of the Irish Elk's antlers played<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline"> </div></span><span>no part in its extinction, especially when species of elk which have a<br></span><span>large body size but much smaller antlers survive to this day. </span></font></blockquote><span>
<br>
</span><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline">> </div>You're apparently easily astounded,</blockquote><div><br></div><div><div class="gmail_default"><font face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif"></font><font size="4">Maybe so but it's fun to be astonished so tell me about one of those experts who believe the Irish Elk's antlers played no part in its extinction.</font></div></div><div> <br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"> <div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline">> </div>as it's easy to find examples of sexual<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline"> </div>selection for characteristics that have no measurable effect on reproductive<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline"> </div>fitness.<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div><div class="gmail_default"><font size="4"><font face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif">I'd ask for one of those easy examples but I don't even know what you're talking about. If a </font><span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif">characteristic is sexually selected then it by definition has a </span><span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif">measurable effect on reproductive </span>fitness, although not necessarily on individual fitness or species fitness as the Irish Elk discovered.</font> </div></div><div><br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><span>
</span><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline">> </div>Do you not see the gaping whole in this arm-waving argument? Hint: how much<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline"> </div>do mature elephant tusks weigh? Why aren't they extinct?<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div><font size="4">It's<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline"> </div>true elephant tusks weigh a bit more, about 1.5 times what the Irish Elk <div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline">a</div>antlers weighed; but a elephant is a MUCH larger animal, a elephant weighs 10 <div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline">to</div> 1<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline">2</div> times what a Irish Elk weighed. And elephant tusks<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline"> </div>are shaped like spears and are coated with enamel<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline"></div>, the hardest<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline"> biological</div> substance <div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline">there is</div>, and so is a excellent weapon. The Irish Elk antlers were shaped like a open hand and were made of soft weak cartilage and so were a lousy weapon. Besides defense elephants use there tusks for foraging, digging, stripping bark off of trees and for moving things out of their way. Elk use their antlers the same way people once used cars with tail fins, to make themselves look snappy to the opposite sex. </font> <br> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><font size="4"><span>
> <div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline">></div> Can you find one single expert who maintains that gargantuan antlers were<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline"> </div></span><span>not a factor in extinction and if they were just a bit larger the Irish<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline"> </div> Elk would still be with us today? </span></font></blockquote></blockquote><br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><span>
</span></blockquote><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline">> </div>Would the existence of such a person sway your belief?</div><div class="gmail_quote"><font size="4"><br><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline">Maybe. </div>Tell me who this mysterious expert of yours is and why he thinks gargantuan antlers were<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline"> </div>not a factor in extinction and I'll let you know if he's changed my belief. It's certainly possible.<br> </font></div><div class="gmail_quote"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><font size="4"> John K Clark</font></div><br><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div></div></div></div>