<div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:comic sans ms,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:#000000"><br></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Sun, Apr 3, 2016 at 11:22 AM, John Clark <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:johnkclark@gmail.com" target="_blank">johnkclark@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><span class=""><div style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif">On Sat, Apr 2, 2016 Anders Sandberg </span><span dir="ltr" style="font-family:arial,sans-serif"><<a href="mailto:anders@aleph.se" target="_blank">anders@aleph.se</a>></span><span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif"> wrote:</span><br></div></span><div class="gmail_extra"><div class="gmail_quote"><span class=""><br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline">> </div>My own view is basically that (1) Brin is right: transparent, accountable open societies for the win.</blockquote><div><br></div></span><div><div style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><font size="4">I presume that wouldn't include the entire world knowing my credit card number.</font></div></div><span class=""><div> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"> <div style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline">> </div>But (2) to really work they need to be tolerant.<br></blockquote><div><br></div></span><font size="4">Yes, if the NSA knows all there is to know about me then I should know all there is to know about the NSA, and if they have a surveillance camera watching me then I should have a equally good surveillance camera watching them. But for laws that transparency must be reciprocal to be enforced X would have to prove that Y has a secret he is not telling X, and governments are likely to have more resources to conceal things than individuals have to reveal them. So in the real world Brin's "Transparent Society" is unlikely to be symmetrical; not a plane of clear glass <div style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline">but </div>more like a one way mirror. <br> </font><span class=""><br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"> <div style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline">></div>I would have no problem with NSA/GHCQ/FRA/... monitoring everything if they were themselves adequately monitored</blockquote><div><br></div></span><div><div style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline"><font size="4">Exactly, that's the problem.</font></div></div><div><div style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline"><font size="4"><br></font></div></div><div><font size="4"><div style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline"> John K Clark</div> </font></div><div><br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"></blockquote></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:'comic sans ms',sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0)">Oh, C'mon - you guys are in dreamland. Has there ever been adequate oversight of the NSC, FBI, CIA and only god knows who else in our government? Look at the things Hoover did. Unbelievable, and yet he remains a hero to many. If this is a problem I suspect it's never going to be fixed. Congressional 'oversight' committees are regularly lied to, if you can believe the reports on that. Including lies of omission. If you don't ask the right questions you don't get the right answers, but how do they know what questions to ask?</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:'comic sans ms',sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0);display:inline">In effect these agencies are given blank checks and then not asked what they did with the money.</div> </div><div><br></div><div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:'comic sans ms',sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0);display:inline">bill w</div> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_extra"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:'comic sans ms',sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0)"></div><br></div></div>
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