<div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif">On Thu, May 12, 2016 at 8:10 AM, Brent Allsop </span><span dir="ltr" style="font-family:arial,sans-serif"><<a href="mailto:brent.allsop@canonizer.com" target="_blank">brent.allsop@canonizer.com</a>></span><span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif"> wrote:</span><br></div><div class="gmail_extra"><div class="gmail_quote"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">
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<p></p><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline">> </div>I can agree with everything you are saying, even when you say "we
do know that a program with a million lines of code can
manufacture the qualia 'red'". I must admit that this is a very
testable scientific theory that could be proven correct by
demonstration. <p></p></div></blockquote><div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline"><font size="4">It's already been tested and proved to be correct.</font></div><font size="4"> <div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline"> I know for a fact that my brain can manufacture the red qualia and I know for a fact that a program with a </div>million lines of code <div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline">(and probably less) assembled my brain from generic atoms.</div></font></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
<p></p><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline">> </div>OK, so something less than a million lines of code can
"manufacture" the elemental qualia red. <br><p></p></div></blockquote><div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><font size="4">That and interactions with the environment.</font></div></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000"><p> </p><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline">> </div>I assume you will agree
that a different set of code can "manufacture" the qualia green,
and that eventually we will be able to know, recognize, and detect
each of these and their differences in each of our minds.<p></p></div></blockquote><div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><font size="4">Maybe but not necessarily, Godelian limits on self knowledge might come into play. </font></div></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000"><p> </p><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline">> </div>Then we will be able to see each of these in our brains, and be able to tell things like if my code "manufacturing" red is more like your code "manufacturing" green. <p></p></div></blockquote><div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><font size="4">I might know that a certain pattern of neuron firings in my brain produces the red qualia in me, but you're brain is organized differently than mine otherwise you would be me, so what sort of qualia your brain is producing I have no way of knowing, I don't even know for certain that your brain is producing any qualia at all. I might be the only conscious being in the universe, I doubt it but I can't prove it's not true nor will I ever be able to. That's why all this talk about qualia is a dead end, if you want to make progress investigate intelligent behavior. </font></div></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000"><p></p><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline">> </div>you are still being
blind to the difference between an abstract representation that
represents what is "manufactured" and the real quality being
"manufactured". <p></p></div></blockquote><div><font size="4"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline">I know for a fact that I am not blind and I know for a fact that I can experience the </div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline">red qualia and I know for a fact that the assembly instructions for John Clark are less than a million lines long and I know for a fact there are only 25 different types of parts. We don't know for a fact that the qualia you call "red" is the same as the qualia I call "red" nor will we ever know that for a fact; so let's move on and study stuff we can know, like intelligent behavior.</div></font></div><div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline"><br></div></div><div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline"><font size="4">John K Clark</font></div></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
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