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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body bgcolor=white lang=EN-US link=blue vlink=purple><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:windowtext'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:windowtext'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:windowtext'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:windowtext'> extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces@lists.extropy.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Anders Sandberg<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [ExI] Security clearances<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>On 2016-05-14 23:06, spike wrote:<br><br><o:p></o:p></p><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span style='color:windowtext'>Anders, this might be the only time this ever happens: I disagree with much or most of what you posted (I left it in, below.)</span><o:p></o:p></p></blockquote><p class=MsoNormal>Cool. And mildly frightening. <br><br><br><o:p></o:p></p><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span style='color:windowtext'>Little evidence they work: very much on the contrary sir. I might not say anything more on that topic other than I disagree.</span><o:p></o:p></p></blockquote><pre><br>Would there be any way to actually document this fact? Anders Sandberg<o:p></o:p></pre><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:windowtext'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:windowtext'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:windowtext'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:windowtext'>Sure, but I would be far more comfortable with it if we can go back to WW2. The allies broke the Nazi codes, but they had to keep secret the fact that they had done it. Plenty of people knew about it at Bletchley Park and some over on this side of the pond, but this would be a perfect example of a SAR program. We know they did an excellent job of keeping that secret. Those with SAR badges followed the gentle suggestion of this poster:<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:windowtext'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:windowtext'><a href="https://www.google.com/search?q=big+cup+of+shut+the+f+up+images&rlz=1C1QJDB_enUS649US649&espv=2&biw=617&bih=701&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwixyY-Yr9vMAhUW-mMKHeILChkQ_AUIBigB">https://www.google.com/search?q=big+cup+of+shut+the+f+up+images&rlz=1C1QJDB_enUS649US649&espv=2&biw=617&bih=701&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwixyY-Yr9vMAhUW-mMKHeILChkQ_AUIBigB</a><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:windowtext'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:windowtext'>A lot of people knew what had happened at Bletchley and a lot of people shut it and kept it shut. How was that done?<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:windowtext'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:windowtext'>Anders, the process works.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:windowtext'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:windowtext'>To your other points, we know that this process works if it filters out plenty of good capable people who should have been cleared. But these are sacrificed to cleanse the system of those few who would have leaked what happened at Bletchley. We know that the process tends to keep military-ey types. We get that. These military-ey types are hard to define, but you know one when you see one. We know that offices with only those type people are not big fun offices. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:windowtext'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:windowtext'>I worked in an office like that for many years, doing interesting work, but this kind of place would never get together for something like a pool party for instance. They seldom would even go out to a bar after hours; too much risk of accidentally saying something which shouldn’t be uttered outside the SCIF (and if something was said, the person saying it would have to self-report, and those who heard it would have to report it, and the talker better hope to hell the stories agreed perfectly or his clearance is a fading memory.) It was a highly disciplined no-nonsense kind of workplace. Interesting work compensated for the lack of silliness; richly compensated for it. There are terrific opportunities for learning cool stuff such as advanced physics right there while doing one’s job. It wasn’t a leaky office. The company treated those people well; turnover was very low.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:windowtext'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:windowtext'>How to document it? I don’t know. Do we have any evidence that anyone inside at Bletchley Park talked? We have evidence that Klaus Fuchs from Los Alamos leaked, but I think that was after the program was already well along. Roosevelt told Joe Stalin after he had already heard that Joe Stalin had been briefed by a spy at Los Alamos, but then-VP Harry Truman had not received any word on what was going on with the A-bomb program.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:windowtext'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:windowtext'>What other big-secret programs do we have that are now public domain? Oh how about that caper where the US recovered a commie submarine? Is there any evidence that the Glomar Explorer was leaked?<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:windowtext'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:windowtext'><a href="http://nsarchive.gwu.edu/nukevault/ebb305/">http://nsarchive.gwu.edu/nukevault/ebb305/</a><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:windowtext'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:windowtext'>spike<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:windowtext'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:windowtext'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:windowtext'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:windowtext'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:windowtext'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><br><br><o:p></o:p></p></div></body></html>