<html>
  <head>
    <meta content="text/html; charset=utf-8" http-equiv="Content-Type">
  </head>
  <body bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
    <p><br>
    </p>
    <p>Hi William,</p>
    <p>Thanks for asking.  It all has to do with the theoretical
      possibility of inverted qualia.  For example, the qualitative
      nature of my "redness" may be more like the qualitative nature of
      your "greenness".  If it is, or if it is not, how could you know? 
      We all interpret "redness", based on the consensus about the
      source of the perception process, rather than the quality of our
      knowledge, or the result of our knowledge.  This failure to
      qualitatively interpret things correctly is the only thing that is
      standing in the way from us knowing and detecting, at least on a
      qualitatively elemental level, what other minds are like, and
      whether or not they are conscious "like we are".  Sure, you can
      simulate any intelligent behavior with abstract representations,
      but unless you know how to properly interpret what an abstract
      simulation is meant to represent, you can't know what the thing
      being simulated is qualitatively like.<br>
    </p>
    <p><br>
    </p>
    <p>For more information on "effing the ineffable" and how to
      interpret things correctly, google for the 15 minute video of my
      talk on "detecting qualia":</p>
    <p><br>
    </p>
    <p><a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AHuqZKxtOf4">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AHuqZKxtOf4</a><br>
    </p>
    <p><br>
    </p>
    <p>Brent Allsop<br>
    </p>
    <p><br>
    </p>
    <br>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 5/14/2016 11:19 AM, William Flynn
      Wallace wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote
cite="mid:CAO+xQEZ-XwYeORyZQ_Urd8CBsw8y4OT6Zdv75TP7SLcCAnoFDQ@mail.gmail.com"
      type="cite">
      <div dir="ltr">
        <div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:'comic sans
          ms',sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span
style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.8px">And
            the only way to know what the word "red" means, when you say
            it, is to know how to properly interpret, qualitatively,
            what you mean for it to represent?</span><span class=""
style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.8px"><font
              color="#888888"><br>
              <br>
              Brent Allsop<br>
            </font></span></div>
        <div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:'comic sans
          ms',sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span
            class=""
style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.8px"><font
              color="#888888"><br>
            </font></span></div>
        <div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:'comic sans
          ms',sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span
            class=""
style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.8px"><font
              color="#888888">Just how would we know, in the beginning
              of our learning of language, what anything means without
              reference to what other people tell us it means?  A
              consensus.  What people take as the meaning of a word IS
              the meaning of it, even as it may change over the years. 
              As a psychologist, I say that if you look at the word
              'red' and experience a visual object that is red, then
              yes, the word, in that instance, does have a red quality. 
              If it conjures up communism, then no.  (of course we are
              in philosophy where anyone can be right, or wrong, or
              neither).  </font></span></div>
        <div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:'comic sans
          ms',sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span
            class=""
style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.8px"><font
              color="#888888"><br>
            </font></span></div>
        <div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:'comic sans
          ms',sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span
            class=""
style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.8px"><font
              color="#888888">bill w</font></span></div>
      </div>
      <div class="gmail_extra"><br>
        <div class="gmail_quote">On Sat, May 14, 2016 at 6:50 AM, Brent
          Allsop <span dir="ltr"><<a moz-do-not-send="true"
              href="mailto:brent.allsop@canonizer.com" target="_blank">brent.allsop@canonizer.com</a>></span>
          wrote:<br>
          <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
            .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
            <div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
              <p><br>
              </p>
              <p>Hi John,</p>
              <p><br>
              </p>
              <p>Thanks for expending the effort on this, I really want
                to try to better understand this line of thinking so I
                can better communicate.</p>
              <span class="">
                <p><br>
                </p>
                <div>On 5/12/2016 1:08 PM, John Clark wrote:<br>
                </div>
                <blockquote type="cite">
                  <div dir="ltr">
                    <div class="gmail_default"
                      style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><span
                        style="font-family:arial,sans-serif">On Thu, May
                        12, 2016 at 8:10 AM, Brent Allsop </span><span
                        dir="ltr" style="font-family:arial,sans-serif"><<a
                          class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
                          href="mailto:brent.allsop@canonizer.com"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:brent.allsop@canonizer.com">brent.allsop@canonizer.com</a></a>></span><span
                        style="font-family:arial,sans-serif"> wrote:</span><br>
                    </div>
                    <div class="gmail_extra">
                      <div class="gmail_quote">
                        <blockquote class="gmail_quote"
                          style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">
                          <div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
                            <div class="gmail_default"
                              style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline">​>
                              ​</div>
                            I can agree with everything you are saying,
                            even when you say "we do know that a program
                            with a million lines of code can manufacture
                            the qualia 'red'".  I must admit that this
                            is a very testable scientific theory that
                            could be proven correct by demonstration. </div>
                        </blockquote>
                        <div>
                          <div class="gmail_default"
                            style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline">​<font
                              size="4">It's already been tested and
                              proved to be correct.​</font></div>
                          <font size="4"> 
                            <div class="gmail_default"
                              style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline">​
                              I know for a fact that my brain can
                              manufacture the red qualia and I know for
                              a fact that a program with a  ​</div>
                            million lines of code 
                            <div class="gmail_default"
                              style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline">​(and
                              probably less) assembled my brain from
                              generic atoms.​</div>
                          </font></div>
                      </div>
                    </div>
                  </div>
                </blockquote>
                <br>
              </span> We are talking about two different thing here. 
              There is the manufacturing process, and then there is what
              is manufactured.  DNA instructs something to be build that
              is responsible for or has an elemental redness quality. 
              You are talking about the DNA manufacturing process, and I
              am talking about what is built from that.  Would you agree
              that there are likely other ways of building what is
              responsible for an elemental redness and greenness
              qualities besides DNA manufacturing?<span class=""><br>
                <br>
                <blockquote type="cite">
                  <div dir="ltr">
                    <div class="gmail_extra">
                      <div class="gmail_quote">
                        <blockquote class="gmail_quote"
                          style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">
                          <div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
                            <div class="gmail_default"
                              style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline">​>
                              ​</div>
                            OK, so something less than a million lines
                            of code can "manufacture" the elemental
                            qualia red. <br>
                          </div>
                        </blockquote>
                        <div>
                          <div class="gmail_default"
                            style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><font
                              size="4">​That and interactions with the
                              environment.</font></div>
                        </div>
                        <blockquote class="gmail_quote"
                          style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">
                          <div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
                            <p> </p>
                            <div class="gmail_default"
                              style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline">​>
                              ​</div>
                            I assume you will agree that a different set
                            of code can "manufacture" the qualia green,
                            and that eventually we will be able to know,
                            recognize, and detect each of these and
                            their differences in each of our minds.</div>
                        </blockquote>
                        <div>
                          <div class="gmail_default"
                            style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><font
                              size="4">​Maybe but not necessarily,
                              ​Godelian limits on self knowledge might
                              come into play. <br>
                            </font></div>
                        </div>
                      </div>
                    </div>
                  </div>
                </blockquote>
                <br>
              </span> So you are saying that qualia will eternally be
              ineffable or not understandable / mapable / observable,
              even for simple qualia like elemental redness an
              greenness?<span class=""><br>
                <br>
                <blockquote type="cite">
                  <div dir="ltr">
                    <div class="gmail_extra">
                      <div class="gmail_quote">
                        <blockquote class="gmail_quote"
                          style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">
                          <div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
                            <p> </p>
                            <div class="gmail_default"
                              style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline">​>
                              ​</div>
                            Then we will be able to see each of these in
                            our brains, and be able to tell things like
                            if my code "manufacturing" red is more like
                            your code "manufacturing" green. </div>
                        </blockquote>
                        <div>
                          <div class="gmail_default"
                            style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><font
                              size="4">​I might know that a​ certain
                              pattern of neuron firings in my brain
                              produces the red qualia in me, but you're
                              brain is organized differently than mine
                              otherwise you would be me, so what sort of
                              qualia your brain is producing I have no
                              way of knowing, I don't even know for
                              certain that your brain is producing any
                              qualia at all. I might be the only
                              conscious being in the universe, I doubt
                              it but I can't prove it's not true nor
                              will I ever be able to. That's why all
                              this talk about qualia is a dead end, if
                              you want to make progress investigate
                              intelligent behavior.</font></div>
                        </div>
                      </div>
                    </div>
                  </div>
                </blockquote>
                <br>
              </span> Again, you are conflating two things together and
              thinking of them as if they were the same.  You are
              talking about composite qualia and I am talking about
              elemental qualia.  I am predicting that there is an
              elemental, fully understandable / mapable qualia level,
              especially for qualia like redness and greenness.  And
              that we can detect, understand, a communicate the quality
              (detect if we have roughly inverted qualia or not) to each
              other at this level.<span class=""><br>
                <br>
                <blockquote type="cite">
                  <div dir="ltr">
                    <div class="gmail_extra">
                      <div class="gmail_quote">
                        <div>
                          <div class="gmail_default"
                            style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><font
                              size="4"> </font></div>
                        </div>
                        <blockquote class="gmail_quote"
                          style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">
                          <div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
                            <div class="gmail_default"
                              style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline">​>
                              ​</div>
                            you are still being blind to the difference
                            between an abstract representation that
                            represents what is "manufactured" and the
                            real quality being "manufactured". </div>
                        </blockquote>
                        <div><font size="4">
                            <div class="gmail_default"
                              style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline">​I
                              know for a fact that I am not blind and I
                              know for a fact that I can experience the
                              ​</div>
                            <div class="gmail_default"
                              style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline">red
                              qualia</div>
                          </font></div>
                      </div>
                    </div>
                  </div>
                </blockquote>
                <br>
              </span> Obviously, but you are still completely missing
              what I am trying to say.  Let me see if this helps.  Would
              you agree that an abstract symbol like the word "red" does
              not have a redness quality?  And the only way to know what
              the word "red" means, when you say it, is to know how to
              properly interpret, qualitatively, what you mean for it to
              represent?<span class="HOEnZb"><font color="#888888"><br>
                  <br>
                  Brent Allsop<br>
                  <br>
                  <br>
                  <br>
                  <br>
                  <br>
                </font></span></div>
            <br>
            _______________________________________________<br>
            extropy-chat mailing list<br>
            <a moz-do-not-send="true"
              href="mailto:extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org">extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</a><br>
            <a moz-do-not-send="true"
              href="http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat"
              rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat</a><br>
            <br>
          </blockquote>
        </div>
        <br>
      </div>
      <br>
      <fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
      <br>
      <pre wrap="">_______________________________________________
extropy-chat mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org">extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat">http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat</a>
</pre>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
  </body>
</html>