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<p>Hi William,</p>
<p>Thanks for asking. It all has to do with the theoretical
possibility of inverted qualia. For example, the qualitative
nature of my "redness" may be more like the qualitative nature of
your "greenness". If it is, or if it is not, how could you know?
We all interpret "redness", based on the consensus about the
source of the perception process, rather than the quality of our
knowledge, or the result of our knowledge. This failure to
qualitatively interpret things correctly is the only thing that is
standing in the way from us knowing and detecting, at least on a
qualitatively elemental level, what other minds are like, and
whether or not they are conscious "like we are". Sure, you can
simulate any intelligent behavior with abstract representations,
but unless you know how to properly interpret what an abstract
simulation is meant to represent, you can't know what the thing
being simulated is qualitatively like.<br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>For more information on "effing the ineffable" and how to
interpret things correctly, google for the 15 minute video of my
talk on "detecting qualia":</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p><a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AHuqZKxtOf4">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AHuqZKxtOf4</a><br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>Brent Allsop<br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 5/14/2016 11:19 AM, William Flynn
Wallace wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CAO+xQEZ-XwYeORyZQ_Urd8CBsw8y4OT6Zdv75TP7SLcCAnoFDQ@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:'comic sans
ms',sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span
style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.8px">And
the only way to know what the word "red" means, when you say
it, is to know how to properly interpret, qualitatively,
what you mean for it to represent?</span><span class=""
style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.8px"><font
color="#888888"><br>
<br>
Brent Allsop<br>
</font></span></div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:'comic sans
ms',sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span
class=""
style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.8px"><font
color="#888888"><br>
</font></span></div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:'comic sans
ms',sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span
class=""
style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.8px"><font
color="#888888">Just how would we know, in the beginning
of our learning of language, what anything means without
reference to what other people tell us it means? A
consensus. What people take as the meaning of a word IS
the meaning of it, even as it may change over the years.
As a psychologist, I say that if you look at the word
'red' and experience a visual object that is red, then
yes, the word, in that instance, does have a red quality.
If it conjures up communism, then no. (of course we are
in philosophy where anyone can be right, or wrong, or
neither). </font></span></div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:'comic sans
ms',sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span
class=""
style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.8px"><font
color="#888888"><br>
</font></span></div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:'comic sans
ms',sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span
class=""
style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.8px"><font
color="#888888">bill w</font></span></div>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Sat, May 14, 2016 at 6:50 AM, Brent
Allsop <span dir="ltr"><<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:brent.allsop@canonizer.com" target="_blank">brent.allsop@canonizer.com</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
<p><br>
</p>
<p>Hi John,</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>Thanks for expending the effort on this, I really want
to try to better understand this line of thinking so I
can better communicate.</p>
<span class="">
<p><br>
</p>
<div>On 5/12/2016 1:08 PM, John Clark wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><span
style="font-family:arial,sans-serif">On Thu, May
12, 2016 at 8:10 AM, Brent Allsop </span><span
dir="ltr" style="font-family:arial,sans-serif"><<a
class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="mailto:brent.allsop@canonizer.com"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:brent.allsop@canonizer.com">brent.allsop@canonizer.com</a></a>></span><span
style="font-family:arial,sans-serif"> wrote:</span><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra">
<div class="gmail_quote">
<blockquote class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline">>
</div>
I can agree with everything you are saying,
even when you say "we do know that a program
with a million lines of code can manufacture
the qualia 'red'". I must admit that this
is a very testable scientific theory that
could be proven correct by demonstration. </div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline"><font
size="4">It's already been tested and
proved to be correct.</font></div>
<font size="4">
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline">
I know for a fact that my brain can
manufacture the red qualia and I know for
a fact that a program with a </div>
million lines of code
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline">(and
probably less) assembled my brain from
generic atoms.</div>
</font></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
</span> We are talking about two different thing here.
There is the manufacturing process, and then there is what
is manufactured. DNA instructs something to be build that
is responsible for or has an elemental redness quality.
You are talking about the DNA manufacturing process, and I
am talking about what is built from that. Would you agree
that there are likely other ways of building what is
responsible for an elemental redness and greenness
qualities besides DNA manufacturing?<span class=""><br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div class="gmail_extra">
<div class="gmail_quote">
<blockquote class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline">>
</div>
OK, so something less than a million lines
of code can "manufacture" the elemental
qualia red. <br>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><font
size="4">That and interactions with the
environment.</font></div>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
<p> </p>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline">>
</div>
I assume you will agree that a different set
of code can "manufacture" the qualia green,
and that eventually we will be able to know,
recognize, and detect each of these and
their differences in each of our minds.</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><font
size="4">Maybe but not necessarily,
Godelian limits on self knowledge might
come into play. <br>
</font></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
</span> So you are saying that qualia will eternally be
ineffable or not understandable / mapable / observable,
even for simple qualia like elemental redness an
greenness?<span class=""><br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div class="gmail_extra">
<div class="gmail_quote">
<blockquote class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
<p> </p>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline">>
</div>
Then we will be able to see each of these in
our brains, and be able to tell things like
if my code "manufacturing" red is more like
your code "manufacturing" green. </div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><font
size="4">I might know that a certain
pattern of neuron firings in my brain
produces the red qualia in me, but you're
brain is organized differently than mine
otherwise you would be me, so what sort of
qualia your brain is producing I have no
way of knowing, I don't even know for
certain that your brain is producing any
qualia at all. I might be the only
conscious being in the universe, I doubt
it but I can't prove it's not true nor
will I ever be able to. That's why all
this talk about qualia is a dead end, if
you want to make progress investigate
intelligent behavior.</font></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
</span> Again, you are conflating two things together and
thinking of them as if they were the same. You are
talking about composite qualia and I am talking about
elemental qualia. I am predicting that there is an
elemental, fully understandable / mapable qualia level,
especially for qualia like redness and greenness. And
that we can detect, understand, a communicate the quality
(detect if we have roughly inverted qualia or not) to each
other at this level.<span class=""><br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div class="gmail_extra">
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><font
size="4"> </font></div>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline">>
</div>
you are still being blind to the difference
between an abstract representation that
represents what is "manufactured" and the
real quality being "manufactured". </div>
</blockquote>
<div><font size="4">
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline">I
know for a fact that I am not blind and I
know for a fact that I can experience the
</div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline">red
qualia</div>
</font></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
</span> Obviously, but you are still completely missing
what I am trying to say. Let me see if this helps. Would
you agree that an abstract symbol like the word "red" does
not have a redness quality? And the only way to know what
the word "red" means, when you say it, is to know how to
properly interpret, qualitatively, what you mean for it to
represent?<span class="HOEnZb"><font color="#888888"><br>
<br>
Brent Allsop<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
</font></span></div>
<br>
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</blockquote>
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