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<p>Hi John,</p>
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<p>Thanks for expending the effort on this, I really want to try to
better understand this line of thinking so I can better
communicate.</p>
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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 5/12/2016 1:08 PM, John Clark wrote:<br>
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<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><span
style="font-family:arial,sans-serif">On Thu, May 12, 2016 at
8:10 AM, Brent Allsop </span><span dir="ltr"
style="font-family:arial,sans-serif"><<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:brent.allsop@canonizer.com" target="_blank"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:brent.allsop@canonizer.com">brent.allsop@canonizer.com</a></a>></span><span
style="font-family:arial,sans-serif"> wrote:</span><br>
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I can agree with everything you are saying, even when
you say "we do know that a program with a million lines
of code can manufacture the qualia 'red'". I must admit
that this is a very testable scientific theory that
could be proven correct by demonstration. </div>
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<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline"><font
size="4">It's already been tested and proved to be
correct.</font></div>
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<div class="gmail_default"
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I know for a fact that my brain can manufacture the
red qualia and I know for a fact that a program with a
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million lines of code
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline">(and
probably less) assembled my brain from generic atoms.</div>
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<br>
We are talking about two different thing here. There is the
manufacturing process, and then there is what is manufactured. DNA
instructs something to be build that is responsible for or has an
elemental redness quality. You are talking about the DNA
manufacturing process, and I am talking about what is built from
that. Would you agree that there are likely other ways of building
what is responsible for an elemental redness and greenness qualities
besides DNA manufacturing?<br>
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OK, so something less than a million lines of code can
"manufacture" the elemental qualia red. <br>
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<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><font
size="4">That and interactions with the environment.</font></div>
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I assume you will agree that a different set of code can
"manufacture" the qualia green, and that eventually we
will be able to know, recognize, and detect each of
these and their differences in each of our minds.</div>
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<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><font
size="4">Maybe but not necessarily, Godelian limits
on self knowledge might come into play. <br>
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<br>
So you are saying that qualia will eternally be ineffable or not
understandable / mapable / observable, even for simple qualia like
elemental redness an greenness?<br>
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Then we will be able to see each of these in our brains,
and be able to tell things like if my code
"manufacturing" red is more like your code
"manufacturing" green. </div>
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<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><font
size="4">I might know that a certain pattern of
neuron firings in my brain produces the red qualia in
me, but you're brain is organized differently than
mine otherwise you would be me, so what sort of qualia
your brain is producing I have no way of knowing, I
don't even know for certain that your brain is
producing any qualia at all. I might be the only
conscious being in the universe, I doubt it but I
can't prove it's not true nor will I ever be able to.
That's why all this talk about qualia is a dead end,
if you want to make progress investigate intelligent
behavior.</font></div>
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<br>
Again, you are conflating two things together and thinking of them
as if they were the same. You are talking about composite qualia
and I am talking about elemental qualia. I am predicting that there
is an elemental, fully understandable / mapable qualia level,
especially for qualia like redness and greenness. And that we can
detect, understand, a communicate the quality (detect if we have
roughly inverted qualia or not) to each other at this level.<br>
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you are still being blind to the difference between an
abstract representation that represents what is
"manufactured" and the real quality being
"manufactured". </div>
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<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline">I
know for a fact that I am not blind and I know for a
fact that I can experience the </div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline">red
qualia</div>
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<br>
Obviously, but you are still completely missing what I am trying to
say. Let me see if this helps. Would you agree that an abstract
symbol like the word "red" does not have a redness quality? And the
only way to know what the word "red" means, when you say it, is to
know how to properly interpret, qualitatively, what you mean for it
to represent?<br>
<br>
Brent Allsop<br>
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