<div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:'comic sans ms',sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.8px">I actually think this kind of quibbling is hamstringing the conversation about censorship. Legally, we may want clear definitions (but in countries where censorship is a big problem the law is often part of the problem). But when trying to come up with solutions and improvements things often descend into a morass of semantics. anders</span><br style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.8px"></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:'comic sans ms',sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.8px"><br></span></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:'comic sans ms',sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.8px">My example still fits the dictionary definition, but apparently it does not fit yours.  Yes, it is all semantics - every discussion depends on a shared definition of terms.  </span></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:'comic sans ms',sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.8px">I see nothing derogatory about calling something semantics.</span></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:'comic sans ms',sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.8px"><br></span></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:'comic sans ms',sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.8px">If my example is not censorship, then just what is it?  It is a given that your definition will not agree with the dictionary one, so who is confusing the discussion, you or me?  Over to you, sir.</span></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:'comic sans ms',sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.8px"><br></span></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:'comic sans ms',sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.8px">bill w</span></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:'comic sans ms',sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.8px"><br></span></div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Sat, May 28, 2016 at 3:30 AM, Anders Sandberg <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:anders@aleph.se" target="_blank">anders@aleph.se</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
  
    
  
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    <div>I actually think this kind of quibbling
      is hamstringing the conversation about censorship. Legally, we may
      want clear definitions (but in countries where censorship is a big
      problem the law is often part of the problem). But when trying to
      come up with solutions and improvements things often descend into
      a morass of semantics.<br>
      <br>
      The essence of censorship is that group A prevents group B from
      communicating something to society, based on it originating in
      group B (suppressing their power) or containing something A
      doesn't like. One can construct legitimate cases, both in the
      sense that group A is legitimately appointed and that the
      suppression is for a legitimate reason. The problem is that a lot
      of cases are not legitimate, either formally - nobody appointed A
      as the moral guardians - or from a moral standpoint - the reasons
      for suppression are not valid. <br>
      <br>
      There are lots of intermediate levels. Nobody appointed parents,
      yet they might have a legitimate say in how conversations are held
      in their family. The publisher that refuses to print a book is
      legitimate in their decision, yet they might have a morally bad
      reason (maybe they didn't like the race of the author). Most of
      these cases can be dealt with by the various local rules we have
      about families, companies and the like. <br>
      <br>
      The key ones, the ones I think we *need* to get right, are the
      ones that have society-wide reach. If the censorship affects
      everybody, then it is everybody's problem. In particular, it
      interferes with the key functioning of an open society: that
      anything is open for criticism, and if the members think the
      criticism is valid, the thing can be changed through collective
      decisions. If certain things cannot be critiqued or if it is not
      possible to have a debate about whether they should be changed,
      then society is not open. Hence censorship by powers that can
      affect all of society is deeply problematic, and legitimate
      censorship needs to be kept on a very tight leash.<br>
      <br>
      One interesting issue is how to handle the emergence of new,
      globalised platforms of power. In the past this rarely happened
      and most thinking about how to handle censorship was based on
      states. However, Facebook, Apple and Google certainly perform
      censorship within their domains, yet their domains are often so
      wide that they can be said to exert society-wide effects. Does
      that mean we need to have a global oversight over their activity?
      Things get even trickier since the global realm includes non-open
      societies. <br><div><div class="h5">
      <br>
      <br>
      On 2016-05-27 21:19, William Flynn Wallace wrote:<br>
    </div></div></div><div><div class="h5">
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                                                          <div style="font-size:12.8px"><span style="font-size:12.8px;line-height:20px;background-color:rgba(255,255,255,0)">Well
                                                          Dan I hate to
                                                          tell you this,
                                                          but we have
                                                          censorship now
                                                          in TV, movies,
                                                          books and
                                                          maybe more.  I
                                                          read recently
                                                          that about 40k
                                                          books are
                                                          published
                                                          every month
                                                          and some one
                                                          has the say-so
                                                          about its
                                                          going on sale
                                                          somewhere
                                                          (where might
                                                          be determined
                                                          by its
                                                          rating).</span></div>
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                                                          </blockquote>
                                                          <br style="font-size:12.8px">
                                                          <span style="font-size:12.8px">No,
                                                          that is not
                                                          censorship. If
                                                          you as a
                                                          publisher tell
                                                          me that you
                                                          will not
                                                          publish my
                                                          book because
                                                          it is
                                                          crap/politically
                                                          incorrect/will
                                                          not sell/it
                                                          is </span><span style="font-size:12.8px"><span>Friday</span></span><span style="font-size:12.8px"> that
                                                          is your
                                                          prerogative.
                                                          There is no
                                                          right to have
                                                          stuff
                                                          published.
                                                          Censorship
                                                          occurs is when
                                                          a centralized
                                                          power can
                                                          decide to
                                                          prevent
                                                          publication
                                                          because of
                                                          content. (Some
                                                          iffy
                                                          definitions
                                                          for
                                                          post-publication
                                                          action, but
                                                          the core is
                                                          prepublication
                                                          approval). 
                                                          <div class="gmail_default">​
                                                          anders</div>
                                                          </span></div>
                                                          <div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000"><span style="font-size:small;font-weight:bold;color:rgb(106,106,106);line-height:18.2px"><br>
                                                          </span></div>
                                                          <div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000"><span style="font-size:small;font-weight:bold;color:rgb(106,106,106);line-height:18.2px">Censorship</span><span style="font-size:small;color:rgb(84,84,84);line-height:18.2px"> is the
                                                          suppression of
                                                          speech, public
                                                          communication
                                                          or other
                                                          information
                                                          which may be
                                                          considered
                                                          objectionable,
                                                          harmful,
                                                          sensitive,
                                                          politically
                                                          incorrect or
                                                          inconvenient
                                                          as determined
                                                          by
                                                          governments,
                                                          media outlets,
                                                          authorities or
                                                          other groups
                                                          or
                                                          institutions.
                                                           dictionary</span></div>
                                                          <div class="gmail_default"><span style="color:rgb(84,84,84);font-family:arial,sans-serif;line-height:18.2px"><br>
                                                          </span></div>
                                                          <div class="gmail_default"><span style="color:rgb(84,84,84);font-family:arial,sans-serif;line-height:18.2px">I
                                                          don't want to
                                                          quibble about
                                                          words, but
                                                          what I wrote
                                                          is well within
                                                          the definition
                                                          above. 
                                                          Certainly the
                                                          type Anders
                                                          mentioned is
                                                          far more
                                                          dangerous and
                                                          threatening. 
                                                          This has
                                                          nothing to do
                                                          with free
                                                          speech.  Of
                                                          course Anders </span></div>
                                                          <div class="gmail_default"><span style="color:rgb(84,84,84);font-family:arial,sans-serif;line-height:18.2px">is
                                                          right that no
                                                          one has the
                                                          right to have
                                                          his stuff
                                                          published
                                                          anywhere. 
                                                          College
                                                          newspaper
                                                          editors found
                                                          that out for
                                                          sure a few
                                                          years ago in a
                                                          court case. 
                                                          Not letting a
                                                          college writer
                                                          put his stuff
                                                          in a campus
                                                          newspaper is
                                                          not a
                                                          violation of
                                                          free speech,
                                                          but it is
                                                          censorship.</span></div>
                                                          <div class="gmail_default"><span style="color:rgb(84,84,84);font-family:arial,sans-serif;line-height:18.2px"><br>
                                                          </span></div>
                                                          <div class="gmail_default"><span style="color:rgb(84,84,84);font-family:arial,sans-serif;line-height:18.2px">bill
                                                          w</span></div>
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                                                          <div class="gmail_default">​</div>
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      <div class="gmail_extra"><br>
        <div class="gmail_quote">On Fri, May 27, 2016 at 3:10 AM, Anders
          <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:anders@aleph.se" target="_blank">anders@aleph.se</a>></span>
          wrote:<br>
          <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
            <div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000"> On 2016-05-26 21:49,
              William Flynn Wallace wrote:<br>
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                  <div class="gmail_default"><span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.8px">Why

                      would it be ethical to have censorship in the
                      first place? It's like saying "Put an AI in charge
                      of slavery..."</span><br style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.8px">
                    <br style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.8px">
                    <div style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.8px">
                      <div><span style="font-size:12.8px;line-height:20px;background-color:rgba(255,255,255,0)">Dan</span></div>
                      <div><span style="font-size:12.8px;line-height:20px;background-color:rgba(255,255,255,0)"><br>
                        </span></div>
                      <div><span style="font-size:12.8px;line-height:20px;background-color:rgba(255,255,255,0)">Well

                          Dan I hate to tell you this, but we have
                          censorship now in TV, movies, books and maybe
                          more.  I read recently that about 40k books
                          are published every month and some one has the
                          say-so about its going on sale somewhere
                          (where might be determined by its rating).</span></div>
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              </blockquote>
              <br>
              No, that is not censorship. If you as a publisher tell me
              that you will not publish my book because it is
              crap/politically incorrect/will not sell/it is Friday that
              is your prerogative. There is no right to have stuff
              published. Censorship occurs is when a centralized power
              can decide to prevent publication because of content.
              (Some iffy definitions for post-publication action, but
              the core is prepublication approval). <br>
              <br>
              <blockquote type="cite">
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                    <div style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.8px">
                      <div><span style="font-size:12.8px;line-height:20px;background-color:rgba(255,255,255,0)">I
                          can easily see an AI being used for some of
                          the labor of digesting all this material.  I
                          also think an AI would never be in charge of
                          actual censorship, but the AI could kick out
                          books, movies, that fudge certain guidelines
                          so that a human, or a committee, or the
                          Supreme Court could decide what to do with
                          it.  <br>
                        </span></div>
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              <br>
              In a sense this is happening with YouTube, where copyright
              infringing material is blocked - officially after a human
              has looked at what the algorithm found, but obviously
              often without any human oversight. For various sad,
              hilarious or rage-inducing examples, just search Boing
              Boing or Slashdot's archives. <br>
              <br>
              <blockquote type="cite">
                <div dir="ltr">
                  <div class="gmail_default">
                    <div style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.8px"><br>
                      <div><span style="font-size:12.8px;line-height:20px;background-color:rgba(255,255,255,0)">Now

                          whether there should BE any kind of censorship
                          is an entirely different question, one that
                          could be debated in this group if it hasn't
                          before (not likely).  </span></div>
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              </blockquote>
              <br>
              As I have mentioned, I am starting to study information
              hazards ( <a href="http://www.nickbostrom.com/information-hazards.pdf" target="_blank">http://www.nickbostrom.com/information-hazards.pdf</a>
              ) Some of these may actually be serious enough that we
              rationally should want some form of censorship or control.
              <br>
              <br>
              Others are not serious enough, but we may want to have
              systems that discourage them (libel law, boycotts,
              whatever). <br>
              <br>
              But we have to be careful with that (e.g. <a href="http://blog.practicalethics.ox.ac.uk/2014/04/the-automated-boycott/" target="_blank"></a><a href="http://blog.practicalethics.ox.ac.uk/2014/04/the-automated-boycott/" target="_blank">http://blog.practicalethics.ox.ac.uk/2014/04/the-automated-boycott/</a>
              ). I recently enjoyed reading a series of case studies
              showing how information concealment played an important
              role in many big disasters ( <a href="http://aleph.se/andart2/risk/the-hazard-of-concealing-risk/" target="_blank">http://aleph.se/andart2/risk/the-hazard-of-concealing-risk/</a>
              ). Generally, limiting information cuts out the good with
              the bad, and we are not very skilled at distinguishing
              them a priori. Plus, management requires information: if
              the problem is an underlying structure or something
              concrete rather than bad information per se, then the
              agencies that manage - whether institutional or the open
              society - need to get that information to do something.
              Far too often censorship just looks for surface detail. <br>
              <br>
              <br>
              <br>
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      <br>
      <pre>_______________________________________________
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    </blockquote>
    <br>
    <br>
    </div></div><span class="HOEnZb"><font color="#888888"><pre cols="72">-- 
Dr Anders Sandberg
Future of Humanity Institute
Oxford Martin School
Oxford University
</pre>
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