<div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:'comic sans ms',sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.8px">I actually think this kind of quibbling is hamstringing the conversation about censorship. Legally, we may want clear definitions (but in countries where censorship is a big problem the law is often part of the problem). But when trying to come up with solutions and improvements things often descend into a morass of semantics. anders</span><br style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.8px"></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:'comic sans ms',sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.8px"><br></span></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:'comic sans ms',sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.8px">My example still fits the dictionary definition, but apparently it does not fit yours. Yes, it is all semantics - every discussion depends on a shared definition of terms. </span></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:'comic sans ms',sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.8px">I see nothing derogatory about calling something semantics.</span></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:'comic sans ms',sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.8px"><br></span></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:'comic sans ms',sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.8px">If my example is not censorship, then just what is it? It is a given that your definition will not agree with the dictionary one, so who is confusing the discussion, you or me? Over to you, sir.</span></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:'comic sans ms',sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.8px"><br></span></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:'comic sans ms',sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.8px">bill w</span></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:'comic sans ms',sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.8px"><br></span></div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Sat, May 28, 2016 at 3:30 AM, Anders Sandberg <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:anders@aleph.se" target="_blank">anders@aleph.se</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
<div>I actually think this kind of quibbling
is hamstringing the conversation about censorship. Legally, we may
want clear definitions (but in countries where censorship is a big
problem the law is often part of the problem). But when trying to
come up with solutions and improvements things often descend into
a morass of semantics.<br>
<br>
The essence of censorship is that group A prevents group B from
communicating something to society, based on it originating in
group B (suppressing their power) or containing something A
doesn't like. One can construct legitimate cases, both in the
sense that group A is legitimately appointed and that the
suppression is for a legitimate reason. The problem is that a lot
of cases are not legitimate, either formally - nobody appointed A
as the moral guardians - or from a moral standpoint - the reasons
for suppression are not valid. <br>
<br>
There are lots of intermediate levels. Nobody appointed parents,
yet they might have a legitimate say in how conversations are held
in their family. The publisher that refuses to print a book is
legitimate in their decision, yet they might have a morally bad
reason (maybe they didn't like the race of the author). Most of
these cases can be dealt with by the various local rules we have
about families, companies and the like. <br>
<br>
The key ones, the ones I think we *need* to get right, are the
ones that have society-wide reach. If the censorship affects
everybody, then it is everybody's problem. In particular, it
interferes with the key functioning of an open society: that
anything is open for criticism, and if the members think the
criticism is valid, the thing can be changed through collective
decisions. If certain things cannot be critiqued or if it is not
possible to have a debate about whether they should be changed,
then society is not open. Hence censorship by powers that can
affect all of society is deeply problematic, and legitimate
censorship needs to be kept on a very tight leash.<br>
<br>
One interesting issue is how to handle the emergence of new,
globalised platforms of power. In the past this rarely happened
and most thinking about how to handle censorship was based on
states. However, Facebook, Apple and Google certainly perform
censorship within their domains, yet their domains are often so
wide that they can be said to exert society-wide effects. Does
that mean we need to have a global oversight over their activity?
Things get even trickier since the global realm includes non-open
societies. <br><div><div class="h5">
<br>
<br>
On 2016-05-27 21:19, William Flynn Wallace wrote:<br>
</div></div></div><div><div class="h5">
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<div style="font-size:12.8px"><span style="font-size:12.8px;line-height:20px;background-color:rgba(255,255,255,0)">Well
Dan I hate to
tell you this,
but we have
censorship now
in TV, movies,
books and
maybe more. I
read recently
that about 40k
books are
published
every month
and some one
has the say-so
about its
going on sale
somewhere
(where might
be determined
by its
rating).</span></div>
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<br style="font-size:12.8px">
<span style="font-size:12.8px">No,
that is not
censorship. If
you as a
publisher tell
me that you
will not
publish my
book because
it is
crap/politically
incorrect/will
not sell/it
is </span><span style="font-size:12.8px"><span>Friday</span></span><span style="font-size:12.8px"> that
is your
prerogative.
There is no
right to have
stuff
published.
Censorship
occurs is when
a centralized
power can
decide to
prevent
publication
because of
content. (Some
iffy
definitions
for
post-publication
action, but
the core is
prepublication
approval).
<div class="gmail_default">
anders</div>
</span></div>
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000"><span style="font-size:small;font-weight:bold;color:rgb(106,106,106);line-height:18.2px"><br>
</span></div>
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000"><span style="font-size:small;font-weight:bold;color:rgb(106,106,106);line-height:18.2px">Censorship</span><span style="font-size:small;color:rgb(84,84,84);line-height:18.2px"> is the
suppression of
speech, public
communication
or other
information
which may be
considered
objectionable,
harmful,
sensitive,
politically
incorrect or
inconvenient
as determined
by
governments,
media outlets,
authorities or
other groups
or
institutions.
dictionary</span></div>
<div class="gmail_default"><span style="color:rgb(84,84,84);font-family:arial,sans-serif;line-height:18.2px"><br>
</span></div>
<div class="gmail_default"><span style="color:rgb(84,84,84);font-family:arial,sans-serif;line-height:18.2px">I
don't want to
quibble about
words, but
what I wrote
is well within
the definition
above.
Certainly the
type Anders
mentioned is
far more
dangerous and
threatening.
This has
nothing to do
with free
speech. Of
course Anders </span></div>
<div class="gmail_default"><span style="color:rgb(84,84,84);font-family:arial,sans-serif;line-height:18.2px">is
right that no
one has the
right to have
his stuff
published
anywhere.
College
newspaper
editors found
that out for
sure a few
years ago in a
court case.
Not letting a
college writer
put his stuff
in a campus
newspaper is
not a
violation of
free speech,
but it is
censorship.</span></div>
<div class="gmail_default"><span style="color:rgb(84,84,84);font-family:arial,sans-serif;line-height:18.2px"><br>
</span></div>
<div class="gmail_default"><span style="color:rgb(84,84,84);font-family:arial,sans-serif;line-height:18.2px">bill
w</span></div>
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<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Fri, May 27, 2016 at 3:10 AM, Anders
<span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:anders@aleph.se" target="_blank">anders@aleph.se</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000"> On 2016-05-26 21:49,
William Flynn Wallace wrote:<br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div class="gmail_default"><span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.8px">Why
would it be ethical to have censorship in the
first place? It's like saying "Put an AI in charge
of slavery..."</span><br style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.8px">
<br style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.8px">
<div style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.8px">
<div><span style="font-size:12.8px;line-height:20px;background-color:rgba(255,255,255,0)">Dan</span></div>
<div><span style="font-size:12.8px;line-height:20px;background-color:rgba(255,255,255,0)"><br>
</span></div>
<div><span style="font-size:12.8px;line-height:20px;background-color:rgba(255,255,255,0)">Well
Dan I hate to tell you this, but we have
censorship now in TV, movies, books and maybe
more. I read recently that about 40k books
are published every month and some one has the
say-so about its going on sale somewhere
(where might be determined by its rating).</span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
No, that is not censorship. If you as a publisher tell me
that you will not publish my book because it is
crap/politically incorrect/will not sell/it is Friday that
is your prerogative. There is no right to have stuff
published. Censorship occurs is when a centralized power
can decide to prevent publication because of content.
(Some iffy definitions for post-publication action, but
the core is prepublication approval). <br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div class="gmail_default">
<div style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.8px">
<div><span style="font-size:12.8px;line-height:20px;background-color:rgba(255,255,255,0)">I
can easily see an AI being used for some of
the labor of digesting all this material. I
also think an AI would never be in charge of
actual censorship, but the AI could kick out
books, movies, that fudge certain guidelines
so that a human, or a committee, or the
Supreme Court could decide what to do with
it. <br>
</span></div>
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</blockquote>
<br>
In a sense this is happening with YouTube, where copyright
infringing material is blocked - officially after a human
has looked at what the algorithm found, but obviously
often without any human oversight. For various sad,
hilarious or rage-inducing examples, just search Boing
Boing or Slashdot's archives. <br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">
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<div style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.8px"><br>
<div><span style="font-size:12.8px;line-height:20px;background-color:rgba(255,255,255,0)">Now
whether there should BE any kind of censorship
is an entirely different question, one that
could be debated in this group if it hasn't
before (not likely). </span></div>
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</blockquote>
<br>
As I have mentioned, I am starting to study information
hazards ( <a href="http://www.nickbostrom.com/information-hazards.pdf" target="_blank">http://www.nickbostrom.com/information-hazards.pdf</a>
) Some of these may actually be serious enough that we
rationally should want some form of censorship or control.
<br>
<br>
Others are not serious enough, but we may want to have
systems that discourage them (libel law, boycotts,
whatever). <br>
<br>
But we have to be careful with that (e.g. <a href="http://blog.practicalethics.ox.ac.uk/2014/04/the-automated-boycott/" target="_blank"></a><a href="http://blog.practicalethics.ox.ac.uk/2014/04/the-automated-boycott/" target="_blank">http://blog.practicalethics.ox.ac.uk/2014/04/the-automated-boycott/</a>
). I recently enjoyed reading a series of case studies
showing how information concealment played an important
role in many big disasters ( <a href="http://aleph.se/andart2/risk/the-hazard-of-concealing-risk/" target="_blank">http://aleph.se/andart2/risk/the-hazard-of-concealing-risk/</a>
). Generally, limiting information cuts out the good with
the bad, and we are not very skilled at distinguishing
them a priori. Plus, management requires information: if
the problem is an underlying structure or something
concrete rather than bad information per se, then the
agencies that manage - whether institutional or the open
society - need to get that information to do something.
Far too often censorship just looks for surface detail. <br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
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<br>
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</blockquote>
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<br>
<br>
</div></div><span class="HOEnZb"><font color="#888888"><pre cols="72">--
Dr Anders Sandberg
Future of Humanity Institute
Oxford Martin School
Oxford University
</pre>
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