<div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:"comic sans ms",sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:27.2px">the bulk of suicides happen among people with problems that can be treated (even if they do not see it that way) or when people try to send strong signals and miscalculate. Anders</span><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:"comic sans ms",sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:27.2px"><br></span></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:"comic sans ms",sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:27.2px">Not to disagree at all but to point out a few things:</span></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:"comic sans ms",sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:27.2px"><br></span></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:"comic sans ms",sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:27.2px">There are many points of view here: the one of the person, and those of the people who view him. We must be careful not to project our own feelings onto the person. While we might feel that death is far to strong a fix for what's wrong, and that what's wrong can be fixed, the person often does not see it that way. Who are we to judge? </span></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:"comic sans ms",sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:27.2px"><br></span></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:"comic sans ms",sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:27.2px">If the problem is within the person, they may have tried to fix it multiple times with no success. If the problem is in the environment - relatives, bosses, friends, lovers, then we may be able to do little to help them, and their efforts may have failed every time and they get desperate. If the problem is with past life experiences, such as deaths or betrayals and such, then again we are likely to be able to do little.</span></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:"comic sans ms",sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:27.2px"><br></span></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:"comic sans ms",sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:27.2px">Another point of view that can interfere with our interpretation of the situation is our own feelings toward the person or just to people in general. We may feel terribly hurt when another person threatens or commits suicide, and focus on our feelings rather than theirs.</span></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:"comic sans ms",sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:27.2px"><br></span></div><div class="gmail_default"><span style="font-size:27.2px">Anders points out the personality disorder problem. I saw one of these when I was a psychiatric aide. She came in with her entire forearm covered in cuts she made with a can lid. She was treated and released and three weeks later she came in having done it to the other arm. Clearly not a suicide attempt but a call for help.</span></div><div class="gmail_default"><span style="font-size:27.2px"><br></span></div><div class="gmail_default"><span style="font-size:27.2px">Here is a link for those who want to know more. It is just wrong to say "Oh, he's just depressed." This obviously ignores the various types and depths of depression, including those who don't present outer expressions of it.</span></div><div class="gmail_default"><span style="font-size:27.2px"><br></span></div><div class="gmail_default"><span style="font-size:27.2px"><a href="http://www.webmd.com/depression/guide/depression-types#1">http://www.webmd.com/depression/guide/depression-types#1</a> </span><br></div><div class="gmail_default"><span style="font-size:27.2px"><br></span></div><div class="gmail_default"><span style="font-size:27.2px">Freud viewed depression as aggression turned inward, and there is something to that. The violent crimes book is full of depressed people - usually against friends and family. You read about it often: "Killed his whole family and then himself." Do not mistake a depressed person as one who is harmless - he is often very dangerous. Do not belittle his depression or you could be attacked viciously. Be very very careful of drunks who may be depressed - alcohol releases emotions like violence.</span><br></div><div class="gmail_default"><span style="font-size:27.2px"><br></span></div><div class="gmail_default"><span style="font-size:27.2px">bill w</span></div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Sun, Sep 25, 2016 at 5:19 AM, Anders Sandberg <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:anders@aleph.se" target="_blank">anders@aleph.se</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><span class="">On 2016-09-24 23:48, Chris Hibbert wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
Stathis Papaioannou wrote:<br>
<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
It's not as simple as that. Most people who try to suicide do it as a<br>
result of a situational crisis or a depressive illness, which we know will<br>
pass even with no intervention beyond keeping them from killing themselves<br>
during the worst moments.<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
Can you point to evidence of that? Maybe it's the phrase "try to do suicide". I'd be surprised to find out that people with "depressive illness" can get their shit together well enough to successfully kill themselves. I don't have as much doubt that they "try". Is there evidence that most successful suicides are also the result of transitory situations?<br>
</blockquote>
<br></span>
This is basically what I learned in Psychology 101. People in deep depression are too inert to do much, but sadly when antidepressants start working they sometimes get enough energy to suicide. There is also a lot of suicides due to other mental illness such as schizophrenia, anxiety disorders, substance abuse, and anorexia nervosa. But a lot of attempted suicides are part of signalling patterns rather than intended to actually end life; this is where you get more of the personality disorders.<br>
<br>
<a href="http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/wps.20128/full" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com<wbr>/doi/10.1002/wps.20128/full</a><br>
<a href="http://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/doi/abs/10.1176/appi.ajp.159.6.909" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://ajp.psychiatryonline.or<wbr>g/doi/abs/10.1176/appi.ajp.159<wbr>.6.909</a><br>
<a href="https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/psychological-medicine/article/psychological-autopsy-studies-of-suicide-a-systematic-review/49EEDF1D29B26C270A2788275995FDEE" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://www.cambridge.org/core<wbr>/journals/psychological-medici<wbr>ne/article/psychological-<wbr>autopsy-studies-of-suicide-a-<wbr>systematic-review/49EEDF1D29B2<wbr>6C270A2788275995FDEE</a><br>
<a href="http://www.jad-journal.com/article/S0165-0327(13)00036-0/abstract" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.jad-journal.com/art<wbr>icle/S0165-0327(13)00036-0/abs<wbr>tract</a><br>
<br>
Overall, people often tend to think that suicide is usually a somewhat rational response to unbearable suffering. But while this happens and should be defended, the bulk of suicides happen among people with problems that can be treated (even if they do not see it that way) or when people try to send strong signals and miscalculate.<br>
<br>
<br>
(A relative once said to my mother over the phone: "Now I will grab my knife and go into the forest." She responded with relief: "Yes, *please* do." A risky strategy, but he is still alive.)<span class="HOEnZb"><font color="#888888"><br>
<br>
-- <br>
Dr Anders Sandberg<br>
Future of Humanity Institute<br>
Oxford Martin School<br>
Oxford University</font></span><div class="HOEnZb"><div class="h5"><br>
<br>
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