<div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:"comic sans ms",sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><div style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:27.2px">If an 18 year old tells the doctor he plans to kill himself because his girlfriend left him, and the doctor helps him to do so after determining it is his choice, should that be both legal and ethical?<span class="gmail-HOEnZb"><font color="#888888"></font></span></div><span class="gmail-HOEnZb" style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:27.2px"><font color="#888888"><div> </div><div>Stathis Papaioannou</div><div><br></div><div>I do not believe that medical doctors should be involved at all. Assisting suicide clashes too strongly with their oaths, and in addition, they have little or no education in counseling mentally distraught people. Period.</div><div><br></div><div>I don't think anyone would assist the person in your example. Not morally. Not in line with common sense.</div><div><br></div><div>bill w</div></font></span></div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Sun, Sep 25, 2016 at 9:23 AM, Stathis Papaioannou <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:stathisp@gmail.com" target="_blank">stathisp@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><br><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote"><span class="">On 25 September 2016 at 08:48, Chris Hibbert <span dir="ltr"><<a>hibbert@mydruthers.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"> Stathis Papaioannou wrote:<br>
<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
It's not as simple as that. Most people who try to suicide do it as a<br>
result of a situational crisis or a depressive illness, which we know will<br>
pass even with no intervention beyond keeping them from killing themselves<br>
during the worst moments.<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
Can you point to evidence of that? Maybe it's the phrase "try to do suicide". I'd be surprised to find out that people with "depressive illness" can get their shit together well enough to successfully kill themselves. I don't have as much doubt that they "try". Is there evidence that most successful suicides are also the result of transitory situations?<br></blockquote><div><br></div></span><div>It's often said that a large proportion of completed suicides, 90% or more, are associated with mental illness. This problematic not only because of how the mental illness is diagnosed in those without a formal history (retrospectively, talking to those who knew the dead person) but also because the definition of mental illness can be very broad, including "adjustment disorder", which essentially covers anyone who experiences a stressful life event and becomes suicidal.</div></div><div><br></div><div> <a href="https://www.researchgate.net/publication/274710108_Do_90_of_Suicide_Victims_Really_have_Serious_Mental_Illness_Psychological_Autopsy_Studies_Psychopathology_and_Suicide" target="_blank">https://www.researchgate.net/<wbr>publication/274710108_Do_90_<wbr>of_Suicide_Victims_Really_<wbr>have_Serious_Mental_Illness_<wbr>Psychological_Autopsy_Studies_<wbr>Psychopathology_and_Suicide</a></div><div><br></div><div>The claim that depressed people are unable to kill themselves applies only to the most severely depressed who can't function at all, and would probably die from self-neglect if they weren't hospitalised. If you're able to go to the supermarket to buy food, you're also able to buy a box of paracetamol, or throw yourself under a truck.</div><span class=""><div> </div><div class="gmail_quote"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
Should we instead help all these people to die?<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
I don't strongly believe that the government or medical practitioners should help people to commit suicide, it should just not be illegal. I wouldn't want to make it easy to buy a suicide kit--whatever it consisted of would be to easy to re-purpose as a murder kit. I just think doctors should be allowed to counsel people who think it's their best option, and it shouldn't be criminal to assist them if reasonable assurances could be provided to the courts that it was their choice. I think the legal terminology is "a rebuttable presumption".<br></blockquote></div><div><br></div></span><div>If an 18 year old tells the doctor he plans to kill himself because his girlfriend left him, and the doctor helps him to do so after determining it is his choice, should that be both legal and ethical?<span class="HOEnZb"><font color="#888888"><span></span></font></span></div><span class="HOEnZb"><font color="#888888"><div> </div>-- <br><div data-smartmail="gmail_signature">Stathis Papaioannou</div>
</font></span></div></div><span class="HOEnZb"><font color="#888888">
<br><br>-- <br>Stathis Papaioannou<br>
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