<div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif">On Thu, Nov 24, 2016 at 8:11 PM, Adrian Tymes </span><span dir="ltr" style="font-family:arial,sans-serif"><<a href="mailto:atymes@gmail.com" target="_blank">atymes@gmail.com</a>></span><span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif"> wrote:</span><br></div><div class="gmail_extra"><div class="gmail_quote"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"></blockquote><br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"></blockquote><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline">> </div>The "three properties" are explicitly different pairings of rotation,<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline"> </div>with obvious connections. </blockquote><div><br></div><div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline"><font size="4">Connections that are not obvious to me, connections that are not obvious to any physicist since 1964, but connections that are obvious to you that you are apparently unable to articulate. Somebody is certainly wrong, maybe you're right, </font></div><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><font size="4">your insight is real<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline"> and everybody else is wrong, or maybe something else is going on.</div></font></span></div><div><br></div>
<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><span class="gmail-m_6204801469143013155gmail-">
><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline">> </div> <font size="4">There is nothing equivalent to a cosmic Monty saying "the<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline"> </div>other ball was picked only from the blue ones".</font></span></blockquote><span class="gmail-m_6204801469143013155gmail-">
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</span><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline">> </div>There is: the fact that we have a priori knowledge that only one will<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline"> </div>be red and one will be blue, and then the scan that shows the first<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline"> </div>ball is red.<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div><font size="4"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline">But y</div>ou <div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline">only know that if one is red the other must be blue </div>because you've taken quantum entanglement as a given, <div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline">and </div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline">quantum entanglement is exactly what is weird! H</div>ow does <div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline">it</div> work? The guy who picked the packages out of a pile of 8 had no idea what was inside <div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline">any of </div>them, they were <div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline">all </div>wrapped<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline"> in a opaque covering</div> a billion years before <div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline">and </div>a billion light years away, he just picked 2 packages at random<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline">;</div> and you waited another billion years before you unwrapped your package. So why <div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline">did</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline"></div> he NEVER pick 2 packages that are red<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline">,</div> or 2 packages that are heavy<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline">,</div> or 2 packages that are radioactive?<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline"> How could he be so discriminating even if he wanted to? In the Monty Hall problem the additional information that allowed you to improve your odds of winning the car came from Monty, but in the quantum case where does that information come from? If it's from Monty then Quantum Monty Hall is weird. </div></font></div><div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline"><br></div></div><font size="4">And I don't understand your probabilities. You X ray your package, you see it's red, if you accept quantum entanglement you know the other package is blue, so if the other package is heavy it must be blue heavy and radioactive or blue heavy and nonradioactive. For some reason you claim there is a 50% chance of <div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline">one</div> of these <div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline">possibilities</div> happening, that would mean a 25% <div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline">chance </div>of it being blue heavy and radioactive<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline"> </div>and a 25% chance of it being<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline"> </div>blue heavy and nonradioactive.</font></div><div class="gmail_quote"><br></div><div class="gmail_quote"><font size="4">But suppose before you Xrayed<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline"></div> your package <div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline">I made</div> 2 copies of your package and <div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline">sent</div> <div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline">them</div> to 2 other people (actually quantum mechanics says it's impossible to clone the quantum state of a particle<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline">,</div> but that itself is also weird <div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline">because it hints that things are not realistic </div>and <div class="gmail_default" style="display:inline"><font face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif">the no cloning theorem </font></div><div class="gmail_default" style="display:inline">cannot<font face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif"></font></div> be derived from classical physics so let's not get into that now) . I give one copy <div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline">to </div>Alice and she decides she will test her's for radioactivity, she finds it to be nonradioactive so if she uses your logic <div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline">she concludes there is a </div>25% <div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline">chance</div> <div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline">the other ball is</div> red<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline"> </div>heavy and radioactive<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline"> </div>and a 25% chance it <div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline">is </div>blue heavy and radioactive. I give the other copy to Bob and he decides to weigh his package, there is a 50% chance he will find<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline"> </div>it<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline"> </div>heavy and a 50% chance he will find it light. I ask all 3 of you to give me probabilities that the other package is heavy.</font><div><div class="gmail_default" style="display:inline"><font face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif" size="4"><br></font></div></div><div><div class="gmail_default" style="display:inline"><font face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif" size="4">So let's summarize:</font></div></div><div><div class="gmail_default" style="display:inline"><font face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif"><br></font></div></div><div><div class="gmail_default" style="display:inline"><font face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif" size="4">You say there is a 50% chance the other package is heavy. (either blue heavy and radioactive or blue heavy nonradioactive both with equal probability) </font></div></div><div><div class="gmail_default" style="display:inline"><font face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif"><br></font></div></div><div><font size="4"><div class="gmail_default" style="display:inline"><font face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif">Alice also says there is a </font></div><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">50% chance the other package is heavy.<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline"> ( either red heavy and radioactive or blue heavy and radioactive both with equal probability) </div></span></font></div><div><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline"><br></div></span></div><div><font size="4"><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline">Bob </div></span><div class="gmail_default" style="display:inline"><font face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif">says there is a </font></div><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">50% chance the other package is heavy.<div class="gmail_default" style="display:inline"> ( blue heavy and radioactive, red heavy radioactive , blue heavy nonradioactive , red heavy nonradioactive, with all 4 having equal probability ) </div></span></font></div><div><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><div class="gmail_default" style="display:inline"><br></div></span></div><div><font size="4"><div class="gmail_default" style="display:inline"><font face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif">Something doesn't add up. An outside observer looking at all 3 would say there is a ( 50 +50 +50) 150% chance the other ball is heavy, but it gets worse, </font></div><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">if instead the <div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline">original question was </div> "is the other ball light?" then using the same logic we would conclude there is <div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline">also </div>a <div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline">150</div>% chance the other ball is light. </span><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"> Probabilities have to add up to 100%, <div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline">if not then a mistake has been made.</div></span></font></div><div><div class="gmail_default" style="display:inline"><font face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif"><br></font></div></div><div><div class="gmail_default" style="display:inline"><font face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif" size="4">You might protest and say the mistake is the 3 tests were not independent so I can't just add probabilities like that. Well maybe so but if so it's your responsibility to explain the nature of the connection between them and, as I proved in a earlier post by showing exactly how to build a machine that classical physics says can't be built, if the world is realistic then whatever the nature of those mysterious connections they can't be local. </font></div></div><div><div class="gmail_default" style="display:inline"><font face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif"><br></font></div></div><div><br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"> <div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline">> </div>I find Wikipedia, at least, a credible<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline"> </div>source on many topics.<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline"><font size="4">So do I, but I can find nothing in it supporting your odd views about probability, nor can I find anybody who thinks the violation of Bell's inequality is just what you'd expect if classical physics ruled the universe instead of quantum physics and is no big deal.</font></div></div><div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline"><font size="4"><br></font></div></div><div><font size="4"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline">John K Clark </div> </font></div><div><br></div><div> </div></div></div></div>