<html>
<head>
<meta content="text/html; charset=UTF-8" http-equiv="Content-Type">
</head>
<body bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
<p><br>
</p>
<p>Hi William,</p>
<p>You are the original asker in this thread of subject "Do digital
computers feel?" right? I haven't seen you comment on what I've
been saying. Hopefully it is evident to you that the theory I
have been describing predicts an answer to this question and that
science could soon demonstrably prove such to all of us by
enabling us to eff the ineffable. Even John admitted that an
abstracted word like red does not have a redness quality. And
since all information in a computer is this type of abstracted
information - a computer can represent or emulate or behave as if
it knows what it is like to feel - but unless it knows how to
interpret its abstracted representation of feelings (something
that the theory predicts is possible, but it would then be more
than just a "digital computer") - a purely digital computer does
not qualitatively "feel" like we do.<br>
</p>
<p>Brent<br>
</p>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 12/15/2016 10:59 AM, William Flynn
Wallace wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CAO+xQEYheUdJAUPGT3gu13bhO2HGcbyScjxNdEKc8qh+eVzs-Q@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span
style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-size:large">in fact I have
no proof that you or anybody else have any subjective
experiences at all. john</span><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span
style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-size:large"><br>
</span></div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span
style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-size:large">It may be that
your standards of proof are in question, at the least. You
seem to be able to believe that only you, out of over 7
billion people, can be conscious, think, feel, and so on.
In other words, the most basic of human qualities.</span></div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span
style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-size:large"><br>
</span></div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span
style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-size:large">I would have to
ask you: <b><i>what proof do you have that you are this
unique?</i></b> How likely is this? It is far, far
less likely than that others experience things in the
external world much like you do.</span></div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span
style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-size:large"><br>
</span></div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span
style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-size:large">Ask ten million
people, excluding the colorblind, to view a red thing. All
ten million call it red. What else do you need?</span></div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span
style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-size:large"><br>
</span></div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span
style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-size:large">bill w</span></div>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, Dec 15, 2016 at 8:05 AM, John
Clark <span dir="ltr"><<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:johnkclark@gmail.com" target="_blank">johnkclark@gmail.com</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr"><span class="">
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><span
style="font-family:arial,sans-serif">On Wed, Dec 14,
2016 at 10:51 PM, Brent Allsop </span><span
dir="ltr" style="font-family:arial,sans-serif"><<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:brent.allsop@gmail.com"
target="_blank">brent.allsop@gmail.com</a>></span><span
style="font-family:arial,sans-serif"> wrote:</span><br>
</div>
</span>
<div class="gmail_extra">
<div class="gmail_quote"><span class=""><br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px
0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline">>
</div>
Let me ask you what you think I mean when I talk
about a "redness quality"? </div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
</span>
<div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline"><font
size="4">Come on Brent, this isn't my first day
at the rodeo! I am quite familiar with the </font></div>
<font size="4">qualia
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline">
idea and I know the difference between objective
and subjective.</div>
</font></div>
<span class="">
<div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline"><br>
</div>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px
0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline">>
</div>
And would you also agree that an abstracted work
like "red" does not have this quality?</blockquote>
<div><font size="4"><br>
</font></div>
</span>
<div><font size="4">
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline">I
would agree that red is a subjective experience
and "red" is just an ASCII sequence. </div>
</font></div>
<span class="">
<div> <br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px
0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline">>
</div>
And would you agree that something in our brain
has this quality when we experience it? </div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
</span>
<div><font size="4">
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline">What's
with this "our" and "we" stuff? I have a
subjective experience when I experience red but
I have no proof that you do, in fact I have no
proof that you or anybody else have any
subjective experiences at all. </div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline">If
somebody believes that a digital computer
behaving as if it is conscious is insufficient
evidence to conclude that it really is conscious
and if he wishes to be consistent in his beliefs
then there is no alternative but to embrace
solipsism.</div>
</font></div>
<div><font size="4">
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline"><br>
</div>
</font></div>
<div><font size="4">
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline">
John K Clark </div>
</font></div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<br>
______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
extropy-chat mailing list<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org">extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</a><br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat"
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://lists.extropy.org/<wbr>mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-<wbr>chat</a><br>
<br>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
</div>
<br>
<fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
<br>
<pre wrap="">_______________________________________________
extropy-chat mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org">extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat">http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat</a>
</pre>
</blockquote>
<br>
</body>
</html>