<div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_extra"><div class="gmail_quote"><font size="2">On Thu, Dec 29, 2016 at 4:01 PM, John Clark <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:johnkclark@gmail.com" target="_blank">johnkclark@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br></font><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><font size="2"><span class=""><div style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif">On Thu, Dec 29, 2016 at 9:41 AM, Dave Sill </span><span dir="ltr" style="font-family:arial,sans-serif"><<a href="mailto:sparge@gmail.com" target="_blank">sparge@gmail.com</a>></span><span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif"> wrote:</span></div></span></font><div class="gmail_extra"><div class="gmail_quote"><span class=""><div> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_extra"><div class="gmail_quote"><div><div style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline">​> ​</div>the program doesn't "understand" that:</div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div></span><div><div style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline">​Forget the program, if it's not behavior how do know what your fellow human beings does or does not understand?​</div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I can never know that, can I? I can only believe one way or the other.<br><br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_extra"><div class="gmail_quote"><span class=""><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_extra"><div class="gmail_quote"><div> <div style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline">​> ​</div>How the program deals with unexpected conditions like simultaneous red and green lights depends, again, on what the programmer implemented.</div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div></span><div><div style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline">​But even the programer doesn't know what the ​</div>programmer implemented<div style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline">​. The programer took 5 minutes to write a program to find the first even number greater than 2 ​that is not the sum of two primes and then stop, but the programer has no idea what the computer will do when it runs that program, even worse the programer doesn't even know if he will ever know. The computer will decide for itself when or even if it will stop.</div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>The programmer knows what he implemented. That doesn't mean he can predict the program's behavior for all possible inputs.<br> <br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_extra"><div class="gmail_quote"><span class=""><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_extra"><div class="gmail_quote"><div><div style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline">​> ​</div>that's just silly anthropomorphism.</div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div></span><div><div style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline">​I am using ​</div>anthropomorphism<div style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline">​ right now to conclude that you are probably conscious. Am I being silly?</div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>No, I but I might be.<br> <br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_extra"><div class="gmail_quote"><div><div style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline"> What I have done is draw an analogy with the only thing in the universe known with absolute certainty to be conscious (me) with another thing that behaves in complex ways that have certain similarities with the way I behave (you).  ​If something behaves rather like me I conclude it is probably conscious rather like me. I could be wrong but it's the best I can do.</div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Agreed.<br><br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_extra"><div class="gmail_quote"><span class=""><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_extra"><div class="gmail_quote"><div><div style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline">​> ​</div>The program doesn't "feel" or "want" anything</div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div></span><div><div style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline">​How do you know this? How do you know your fellow human beings feels or wants anything?​</div> </div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I don't know it, I believe it, based on my understanding of computer science and digital logic.<br><br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_extra"><div class="gmail_quote"><span class=""><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_extra"><div class="gmail_quote"><span class="m_-2867970420940563966gmail-"><div><div style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline">​> ​</div>brains are extraordinarily complex and not well understood.<br></div></span></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div></span><div><div style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline">​But you think you understand brains well enough to understand they are not complex enough ​</div><div style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline">​to make an AI.​</div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Huh? Straw man much? I'm pretty sure we haven't created a human-level general AI, yet, but I'm also pretty sure we probably will someday.<br><br></div><div>-Dave <br></div></div></div></div>