<div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_default">
<p class="gmail-m_-3089126898399559102gmail-p1" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">
</p><font size="4">Brent Allsop wrote:</font></div><div class="gmail_default"><br>
<blockquote style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex" class="gmail_quote">> I still see and theoretically predict that there must be some level, for which it can be said that something “has” the redness quality</blockquote><div><br></div><div><font size="4">If "red" means experiencing the red qualia then a tomato can not be red, unless tomatoes are conscious. A tomato can produce the redness qualia in certain arrangements of atoms that obey the laws of physics (like me), but it would be meaningless to say something has the redness qualia even in a thought experiment without specifying what is observing it. Qualia is in the mind of the beholder not the behold, what is being observed may not even have a mind. </font></div><br><blockquote style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex" class="gmail_quote">> something having a redness quality is different than some mechanism that can detect this redness quality </blockquote><div><br></div><div><font size="4">A redness qualia detecting mechanism may or may not itself be red, it can make that determination with the help of a mirror. Asking "does a glutamate molecule have the largeness or smallness quality?" can only have one answer, "It depends on what it's compared to, compared to an electron it has the largeness quality and compared to a galaxy it has the smallness quality". And the same would be true about it having the redness quality, it depends on who is observing it, or more generally how the observer is interacting with the glutamate. If I am interacting with the glutamate by observing the light reflected off it then it will not produce the redness quaia in me, but if I interact with glutamate by the molecule binding with certain neurons in my brain then it will produce the redness quality. Interacting with electromagnetic waves of 780 nanometers is not the only way that the redness qualia can be experienced by me.</font></div></div><div class="gmail_default"><br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline">> </div>For you, it is anything that is functionally the same as, that is the neural correlate of qualia. </blockquote><div><br></div><div><font size="4"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline">Yes.</div> </font></div><div><br></div><div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline">> </div>For you, the qualia is downstream, </blockquote><div><br></div><div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><font size="4">I think the ability to experience qualia needs a certain amount of complexity so it's got to be downstream from something as simple as a molecule. And nothing in isolation has the redness qualia or any qualia at all, it's only meaningful to say X produces the redness qualia in Y. .</font></div></div><div> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline">> </div>or implemented on top of the functional behavior.<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline"> </div>But my prediction is that you have this completely backwards. </blockquote><div><br></div><div><div class="gmail_default"><font face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif"><font size="4">If you accept that Darwin was right and your ideas are also right then you must predict there are no conscious beings in the universe. I think qualia are</font></font><font size="4"><span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif"> </span>implemented on top of the functional behavior as a byproduct, so if I accept that Darwin was right (and I do) and if my ideas are right then the fact that there is at least one conscious being in the universe is not mysterious.</font></div></div><div class="gmail_default"><br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline">> </div>The prediction is that everyone will be forced by reliable demonstrable science to say something like - yes, it is glutamate that has the greenness quality. </blockquote><div><br></div><div><font size="4"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline">And when that happens the next order of business will be in determining what "</div>the greenness quality<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline">" means. Does it mean...</div></font></div><div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline"><br></div></div><div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline"><font size="4">1) Something that makes someone else make a noise with their mouth that sounds like "I am experiencing the greenness quality "?</font></div></div><div><font size="4"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline">2) </div><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">Something that makes someone else make a noise with their mouth that sounds like<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline"> "</div></span><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">I am experiencing the <div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline">same </div>greenness quality<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline"> I have when I observe grass or an emerald"?</div></span></font></div><div><font size="4"><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline">3) </div></span><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">Something that makes someone else make a noise with their mouth that sounds like</span><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline"> "</div><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">I am experiencing the </span><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline">same </div><font face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif">greenness quality</font><div class="gmail_default" style="display:inline"><font face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif"> that you do when you observe emeralds or grass"?</font></div></font></div><div><font size="4"><div class="gmail_default" style="display:inline"><font face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif">4) </font></div><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><div class="gmail_default" style="display:inline"> </div></span><font face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif">Something that makes someone</font><div class="gmail_default" style="display:inline"><font face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif"> else actually experience </font></div><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">the </span><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline">same subjective </div><font face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif">greenness quality</font><div class="gmail_default" style="display:inline"><font face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif"> that I do when I observe emeralds or grass?</font></div></font></div><div><div class="gmail_default" style="display:inline"><font face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif"><br></font></div></div><div><div class="gmail_default" style="display:inline"><font face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif" size="4">If it means #4 how on Earth could that be reliably demonstrated, even in theory?</font></div></div><div><br></div><div class="gmail_default"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"> >Let’s go with your functional predictions and move qualia above the hardware level and assume that there is some hardware independent function that has the redness quality we can experience</blockquote><div><br></div><div> </div><div><font size="4">Not to be pedantic but when dealing with philosophical issues like personal identity, qualia and consciousness one must be extremely careful with personal pronouns like "I" "we" and "you". Those pronouns can mask a lot of fuzzy thinking.</font></div></div><div class="gmail_default"><br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline">> </div>there is a different function that has the greenness quality we can experience, </blockquote><div><br></div><div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline"><font size="4">The greenness function is not light with a wavelength of 510 nanometers nor is it part of my brain, it is part of my mind, it is not a noun it is part of what my brain does. My </font></div><font size="4"><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">greenness function<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline"> inputs light of </div></span><font face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif">510 nanometers</font><div class="gmail_default" style="display:inline"><font face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif"> and outputs the green qualia. I don't know if your green function does the same as mine, I have my suspicions but I don't even know for a fact that you have a green function, after all most things don't. I suspect but can not prove that rocks and trees don't have a greenness function because they don't behave as if they do, however I do suspect my fellow human beings do have a greenness function of some sort because they behave as if they do. But I could be wrong.</font></div></font></div><div class="gmail_default"><br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"> <div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline">> </div>The detection of these functional qualities, via being consciously aware of them, can be said to be the initial cause of us reporting that “I am experiencing red”. </blockquote><div><br></div><div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline"><font size="4">If that's all it takes why wouldn't you believe an AI if it said</font></div><font size="4"> “I am experiencing red”<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline">?</div></font></div><div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline"><font size="4"><br></font></div></div><div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline"><font size="4">John K Clark</font></div></div><div class="gmail_default"><br></div><div class="gmail_default"><br></div></div></div>