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    <p><br>
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    <p><br>
    </p>
    <p>Hi William,</p>
    <p><br>
    </p>
    <p>Yay, I must be at least a little better at communicating, after
      so long, as you guys (and more of you) are starting to ask great
      questions.<br>
    </p>
    <p>But, again, I must first ask you a question about what you mean
      by "the perception part".  As there are still multiple competing
      theories out about what all perception includes, for which there
      hasn't yet been sufficient evidence to falsify those theories for
      their supporters.  I'll give you an answer using my favorite
      "materialist" theory (happens to be the simplest one that I know
      of), and how it will be verified or falsified via demonstrable
      science using these effing of the ineffable techniques, and if
      your theory is similar, my job will be done.  If your theory is
      different, I'll describe the much more complex way which the
      theory will be verified / falsified by demonstrable science using
      this same correct qualitative interpretation method.<br>
    </p>
    <p><br>
    </p>
    <p>We might as well start at the beginning of the perception
      process, for completeness (and this will be required to see and
      prove what is the neural correlate of redness in our brain).  The
      perception of a strawberry starts with the target of perception or
      the surface of the strawberry having a set of physical qualities,
      (it's ability to reflect something like 650 NM light) that we
      think of or interpret as being "red".  There is the causally
      downstream set of physical qualities which are very different from
      the set of physical qualities the surface of the strawberry has. 
      This is the 650 NM light.  Then, there is a translation mechanism
      (the retina) which translate the physical qualities of the light
      into a different set of physical qualities (the red and green
      signal traveling down your optic nerve).  Again, these are all
      very different physical qualities, we think of, or interpret all
      of them as if they were "red".  The correctly functioning retina,
      is what correctly translates one different set of physical
      qualities to the other, in a way that allows us to abstract away
      from the particular different physical representations, and think
      of both of them in a functionally optimized way: "We think of or
      interpret all them all as if they were all red".  Note: if you add
      something in this causal perception Chanel, such as a fMRI camera
      and video sensing system such as might be used to target and
      perceived the quality of knowledge inside our brain, that also
      represents what we think of as "red" or at this point the
      "redness" (which will be inverted for the duplicated person).  All
      these diverse representations also will all have very different
      sets of physical qualities we only think of as if they were all
      the same "red".  Every one of these sets of physical
      representations we all think of as being "red" (or abstracted
      different physical representations we all think of as ones and
      zeros in the computer portion of the channel) require a correct
      qualitative translation mechanism that translates from one
      physical set of qualities, to the next different one, in a way
      that allows us to think of all of them in a simplified way - as if
      they were all "red".<br>
    </p>
    <p>So far, in our duplicated person, we haven't changed anything
      yet.  And this much of the causal "Perception Chanel" is
      identical.  There is further neural processing, such as that
      required to recognize the edges of the strawberry in the 2 two D
      representations of the strawberry coming down our optical nerve. 
      And there is the part that converts these 2D images into 3D voxel
      elements again representing the 3D strawberry with a completely
      different set of physical qualities which are nothing like any of
      the up channel physical qualities.  Again, up until this point
      things remain physically identical in our duplicated person.  Now,
      after all this neural processing, there is yet another final
      translation mechanism  in the perception Chanel which translates
      to yet another completely different set of physical qualities. 
      (Again, none of these physical qualities, including the qualities
      of the surface of the strawberry are anything like each other.) 
      Where before the duplication, the translation mechanism would
      translate to voxel knowledge of the surface of the strawberry
      having a redness set of physical qualities we can experience,
      while in the duplicate the final translation mechanism translates
      to physical knowledge that has a set of physical qualities we
      experience as having a greenness quality.<br>
    </p>
    So, how this particular theory will be proven correct, or falsified
    for everyone in competing theory camps, is via the weak stronger and
    strongest form of effing the ineffable I've been describing and also
    described in this video: 
    <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AHuqZKxtOf4">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AHuqZKxtOf4</a> and via this method
    finding whatever the particular neural correlates are of each of our
    redness and greenness... conscious experiences.  This is the
    "materialist" theory that falsifiably predicts that without the
    right material, no redness.  Other theories include "functionalist"
    theories, and various other "emergent" theories (what seems to be
    the current leading expert consensus set of theories because of the
    fallacious neural substitution argument), "quantum" theories,
    "relational" theories, "Higher order" theories, neither world
    "spiritual" or various dualistic religious theories such as
    Cartesian dualism (these are the naive most popular theories), even
    elimanativests theories with no qualia at all, and lots more that
    are all much more complex and problematic than this simple theory. 
    One of these theories is about to be proven true, while all the rest
    falsified, by simply correctly interpreting the physical qualities
    representing what we are detecting or "effing the ineffable".<br>
    <br>
    <p>Is your theory of what the conscious "perception part" is
      anything like this materialist one?  Which theory do you all bet
      is going to soon turn out to be "The One"?<br>
    </p>
    <br>
    Brent Allsop<br>
    <br>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 1/1/2017 10:04 AM, William Flynn
      Wallace wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote
cite="mid:CAO+xQEZYyEOmGgGZS2O3-QfYf9sVsBT=QVfLzctVPUc=BwKwpQ@mail.gmail.com"
      type="cite">
      <div dir="ltr">
        <div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0)">For
          the most part, I don't belong in this discussion but I'd like
          to know the meaning of</div>
        <div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><br>
        </div>
        <div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span
style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.8px">"You
            completely swap the new persons redness knowledge with their
            greenness knowledge." </span><br>
        </div>
        <div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span
style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.8px"><br>
          </span></div>
        <div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span
style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.8px">Are
            you talking about rewiring the optical sensory system or the
            perception part?</span></div>
        <div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span
style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.8px"><br>
          </span></div>
        <div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span
style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.8px">bill
            w</span></div>
      </div>
      <div class="gmail_extra"><br>
        <div class="gmail_quote">On Sun, Jan 1, 2017 at 10:49 AM, Brent
          Allsop <span dir="ltr"><<a moz-do-not-send="true"
              href="mailto:brent.allsop@gmail.com" target="_blank">brent.allsop@gmail.com</a>></span>
          wrote:<br>
          <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
            .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
            <div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
              <p><br>
              </p>
              <p>Hi Jason,<br>
              </p>
              <p>Good question.  Let me first ask you a question, then
                based on your answer, I will be able to better answer
                your questions.<br>
              </p>
              <p><br>
              </p>
              <p>Let's say you duplicate a person, possibly with a Star
                Trek like transporter.  Except you make one minor
                change.  You completely swap the new persons redness
                knowledge with their greenness knowledge.  I would say
                you have still successfully transported them, that you
                have achieved multiple-realizability and functionally
                they will be identical.  But, the new person represents
                knowledge of strawberries with a greenness quality.  Do
                these before and after people have "identical mental
                states"?<span class="HOEnZb"><font color="#888888"><br>
                  </font></span></p>
              <span class="HOEnZb"><font color="#888888">
                  <p>Brent<br>
                  </p>
                </font></span>
              <div>
                <div class="h5"> <br>
                  <div class="m_-1712693100872867830moz-cite-prefix">On
                    12/31/2016 4:44 PM, Jason Resch wrote:<br>
                  </div>
                  <blockquote type="cite">
                    <div dir="ltr">Brent,
                      <div><br>
                      </div>
                      <div>Thank you, the video cleared it up for me
                        then. So do you have no objection to
                        multiple-realizability (the idea that different
                        physical materials could in theory be used to
                        construct minds that have identical mental
                        states)?</div>
                      <div><br>
                      </div>
                      <div>Jason<br>
                        <div class="gmail_extra"><br>
                          <div class="gmail_quote">On Fri, Dec 30, 2016
                            at 4:53 PM, Brent Allsop <span dir="ltr"><<a
                                moz-do-not-send="true"
                                href="mailto:brent.allsop@gmail.com"
                                target="_blank">brent.allsop@gmail.com</a>></span>
                            wrote:<br>
                            <blockquote class="gmail_quote"
                              style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px
                              #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
                              <div dir="ltr">
                                <div>
                                  <div>
                                    <div>
                                      <div>
                                        <div><br>
                                        </div>
                                        Hi Jason,<br>
                                        <br>
                                      </div>
                                      I'm just talking in simplified
                                      qualitative terms to make
                                      communication easier to model what
                                      is and isn't important.  that is
                                      the only reason I used the term
                                      grue to represent all the 99
                                      million or whatever new colors
                                      that any particular tetrachromat
                                      can experience (surely they are
                                      not all the same).<br>
                                      <br>
                                    </div>
                                    Also, when i say that glutamate has
                                    the redness quality and glycene has
                                    the grenness quality, this too, is
                                    just simplified.  I am describing
                                    what it would be like in a
                                    hypothetical world that only has 3
                                    colors - red (glutamate),
                                    green(glycene), and
                                    white(aspartate).  (see: <a
                                      moz-do-not-send="true"
                                      href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AHuqZKxtOf4&t=30s"
                                      target="_blank">https://www.youtube.com/watch?<wbr>v=AHuqZKxtOf4&t=30s</a>) 
                                    I simply describe in that video that
                                    if there was such a world, how could
                                    the people in that world correctly
                                    see that in their simplified world
                                    that glutamate was the neural
                                    correlate of red (and not think it
                                    was white since glutamate reflects
                                    white light).<br>
                                    <br>
                                  </div>
                                  Then once a person can understand how
                                  this general correct qualitative
                                  interpretation theory works in the
                                  simplified world, they can use the
                                  same proper qualitative interpretation
                                  of abstracted data, in the real world
                                  - to finally not be qualia blind and
                                  finally discover what really has all
                                  the redness qualities any one of us
                                  can experience.<span
                                    class="m_-1712693100872867830HOEnZb"><font
                                      color="#888888"><br>
                                      <br>
                                    </font></span></div>
                                <span
                                  class="m_-1712693100872867830HOEnZb"><font
                                    color="#888888">Brent<br>
                                    <div>
                                      <div><br>
                                        <br>
                                        <br>
                                        <div><br>
                                        </div>
                                      </div>
                                    </div>
                                  </font></span></div>
                              <div class="m_-1712693100872867830HOEnZb">
                                <div class="m_-1712693100872867830h5">
                                  <div class="gmail_extra"><br>
                                    <div class="gmail_quote">On Fri, Dec
                                      30, 2016 at 3:29 PM, Jason Resch <span
                                        dir="ltr"><<a
                                          moz-do-not-send="true"
                                          href="mailto:jasonresch@gmail.com"
                                          target="_blank">jasonresch@gmail.com</a>></span>
                                      wrote:<br>
                                      <blockquote class="gmail_quote"
                                        style="margin:0 0 0
                                        .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc
                                        solid;padding-left:1ex">
                                        <div dir="ltr"><br>
                                          <div class="gmail_extra"><br>
                                            <div class="gmail_quote"><span>On
                                                Fri, Dec 30, 2016 at
                                                4:15 PM, Brent Allsop <span
                                                  dir="ltr"><<a
                                                    moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:brent.allsop@gmail.com" target="_blank">brent.allsop@gmail.com</a>></span>
                                                wrote:<br>
                                                <blockquote
                                                  class="gmail_quote"
                                                  style="margin:0 0 0
                                                  .8ex;border-left:1px
                                                  #ccc
                                                  solid;padding-left:1ex">
                                                  <div dir="ltr">
                                                    <p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:0.0001pt"> </p>
                                                    <p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:0.0001pt">I, like most people, am a mere tetra
                                                      chromate – I
                                                      experience the
                                                      world with 3
                                                      primary colors.<span> 
                                                      </span>But some
                                                      people are
                                                      tetrachromats, and
                                                      do it with 4
                                                      primary colors.<span> 
                                                      </span>Let’s call
                                                      this 4<sup>th</sup>
                                                      color “grue”.<span> 
                                                      </span>Obviously,
                                                      all us tri
                                                      chromats can hear
                                                      the person say
                                                      things like: “No
                                                      that is Grue, not
                                                      one of the primary
                                                      colors, as you
                                                      claim” and we can
                                                      observe what is
                                                      causing the 4<sup>th</sup>
                                                      primary color,
                                                      including it’s
                                                      neural correlate
                                                      in their brains.<span> 
                                                      </span>In other
                                                      words, like Frank
                                                      Jackson’s
                                                      brilliant color
                                                      scientist raised
                                                      in a black and
                                                      what room, us
                                                      trichromats can
                                                      learn everything
                                                      about grue, and
                                                      see that it is not
                                                      in our heads, but
                                                      we can see when
                                                      the neurarl
                                                      correlate of grue
                                                      is in the head of
                                                      a tetrachromat.</p>
                                                    <p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:0.0001pt"> </p>
                                                    <p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:0.0001pt">In other words, all of us normal
                                                      trichromatic
                                                      people are grue
                                                      zombies.<span>  </span>We
                                                      can know and
                                                      communicate
                                                      everything about
                                                      them.<span>  </span>In
                                                      fact, we might
                                                      even be able to be
                                                      trained to call
                                                      the right things
                                                      grue, just like
                                                      the tetrachromat
                                                      does, and lie
                                                      about it, and
                                                      convince everyone
                                                      else that we might
                                                      be a tetrachromat.<span> 
                                                      </span>(until you
                                                      observe my brain)<span> 
                                                      </span>So, until
                                                      we enhance our
                                                      primary visual
                                                      cortext and give
                                                      it what has the
                                                      grue color, we
                                                      will never know
                                                      how the
                                                      tetrachromat
                                                      qualitatively
                                                      interprets the
                                                      word “grue”.</p>
                                                    <p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:0.0001pt"> </p>
                                                    <p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:0.0001pt">Now, some people think of a “p-zombie” as
                                                      something that is
                                                      atomically
                                                      identical to us,
                                                      but just doesn’t
                                                      have the
                                                      qualitative
                                                      experience of
                                                      consciousness –
                                                      which of course is
                                                      very absurd, and
                                                      very different
                                                      than the grue type
                                                      of zombie, I am,
                                                      who simply isn’t
                                                      yet capable of
                                                      producing the grue
                                                      neural correlate
                                                      in my brain.<span> 
                                                      </span>But I can
                                                      represent grue
                                                      with anything else
                                                      that is in my
                                                      brain, and talk
                                                      about it as if it
                                                      was grue, in a
                                                      grue zombie way.</p>
                                                    <p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:0.0001pt"> </p>
                                                  </div>
                                                </blockquote>
                                                <div><br>
                                                </div>
                                              </span>
                                              <div>But no new
                                                neurotransmitters are
                                                required to experience
                                                grue.</div>
                                              <div><br>
                                              </div>
                                              <div>Moreover,
                                                tretrachromats don't
                                                just see 1 new type of
                                                color, they can see 99
                                                million new colors that
                                                us trichromats cannot
                                                see. This is because we
                                                can sense about 100
                                                independent relative
                                                brightnesses for red
                                                green and blue colors,
                                                which allows 100x100x100
                                                possible resulting
                                                colors (1 million
                                                colors). Tetrachromats
                                                get to see
                                                100x100x100x100 or 100
                                                million colors.</div>
                                              <div><br>
                                              </div>
                                              <div>How can so many new
                                                colors come about if the
                                                neurocorolates are
                                                somehow dependent on
                                                specific chemicals in
                                                the brain? Tetrachromats
                                                don't have 100 times as
                                                many chemicals in their
                                                brain as trichromats
                                                have, yet they get to
                                                perceive 100 times as
                                                many qualia.</div>
                                              <div>
                                                <div
                                                  class="m_-1712693100872867830m_-502044300747996808h5">
                                                  <div><br>
                                                  </div>
                                                  <div>Jason</div>
                                                  <div> </div>
                                                  <blockquote
                                                    class="gmail_quote"
                                                    style="margin:0 0 0
                                                    .8ex;border-left:1px
                                                    #ccc
                                                    solid;padding-left:1ex">
                                                    <div dir="ltr"> </div>
                                                    <div
class="m_-1712693100872867830m_-502044300747996808m_-7144455735653961442HOEnZb">
                                                      <div
class="m_-1712693100872867830m_-502044300747996808m_-7144455735653961442h5">
                                                        <div
                                                          class="gmail_extra"><br>
                                                          <div
                                                          class="gmail_quote">On
                                                          Fri, Dec 30,
                                                          2016 at 12:30
                                                          PM, Jason
                                                          Resch <span
                                                          dir="ltr"><<a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:jasonresch@gmail.com"
                                                          target="_blank">jasonresch@gmail.com</a>></span>
                                                          wrote:<br>
                                                          <blockquote
                                                          class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
                                                          <div dir="ltr">Reminds
                                                          me a bit of
                                                          "An
                                                          Unfortunate
                                                          Dualist":
                                                          <div><br>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div><a
                                                          moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://themindi.blogspot.com/2007/02/chapter-23-unfortunate-dualist.html"
target="_blank">http://themindi.blogspot.com/2<wbr>007/02/chapter-23-unfortunate-<wbr>dualist.html</a><br>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div><br>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>As to
                                                          your puzzle,
                                                          if Fred is
                                                          unable to
                                                          detect any
                                                          effects from
                                                          conscious
                                                          people
                                                          (including
                                                          their
                                                          reflections),
                                                          then he should
                                                          not  be able
                                                          to see his own
                                                          reflection,
                                                          but then he
                                                          also shouldn't
                                                          be able to
                                                          hear his own
                                                          thoughts
                                                          either. Which
                                                          might be your
                                                          definition of
                                                          a zombie,
                                                          making him
                                                          visible, etc.
                                                          "Russell's
                                                          reflection".
                                                          However,
                                                          Fred's own
                                                          voice might
                                                          still be heard
                                                          if Fred's
                                                          consciousness
                                                          is an
                                                          epiphenomenon,
                                                          but I think
                                                          practically
                                                          speaking I
                                                          think
                                                          epiphenomenalism can
                                                          be ruled out,
                                                          together with
                                                          the notion of
                                                          p-zombies.</div>
                                                          <div><br>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>See
                                                          Daniel
                                                          Dennett's "The
                                                          Unimagined
                                                          Preposterousness
                                                          of Zombies": <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
                                                          href="https://ase.tufts.edu/cogstud/dennett/papers/unzombie.htm"
target="_blank">https://ase.tufts.ed<wbr>u/cogstud/dennett/papers/unzom<wbr>bie.htm</a></div>
                                                          <div><br>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <blockquote
                                                          style="margin:0px
                                                          0px 0px
                                                          40px;border:none;padding:0px">
                                                          <div><span
                                                          style="color:rgb(37,37,37);font-family:sans-serif;font-size:14px">Dennett
                                                          argues that
                                                          "when
                                                          philosophers
                                                          claim that
                                                          zombies are
                                                          conceivable,
                                                          they
                                                          invariably
                                                          underestimate
                                                          the task of
                                                          conception (or
                                                          imagination),
                                                          and end up
                                                          imagining
                                                          something that
                                                          violates their
                                                          own
                                                          definition".</span><sup
id="m_-1712693100872867830m_-502044300747996808m_-7144455735653961442m_-3864089206699251215m_1977091709976841212gmail-cite_ref-Dennett1991_3-1"
class="m_-1712693100872867830m_-502044300747996808m_-7144455735653961442m_-3864089206699251215m_1977091709976841212gmail-reference"
style="line-height:1;unicode-bidi:isolate;white-space:nowrap;font-size:11.2px;color:rgb(37,37,37);font-family:sans-serif"><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophical_zombie#cite_note-Dennett1991-3"
style="text-decoration:none;color:rgb(11,0,128);background-image:none;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial;background-color:initial"
target="_blank">[3]</a></sup><sup
id="m_-1712693100872867830m_-502044300747996808m_-7144455735653961442m_-3864089206699251215m_1977091709976841212gmail-cite_ref-Dennett1995_4-1"
class="m_-1712693100872867830m_-502044300747996808m_-7144455735653961442m_-3864089206699251215m_1977091709976841212gmail-reference"
style="line-height:1;unicode-bidi:isolate;white-space:nowrap;font-size:11.2px;color:rgb(37,37,37);font-family:sans-serif"><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophical_zombie#cite_note-Dennett1995-4"
style="text-decoration:none;color:rgb(11,0,128);background-image:none;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial;background-color:initial"
target="_blank">[4]</a></sup><span
                                                          style="color:rgb(37,37,37);font-family:sans-serif;font-size:14px"> He
                                                          coined the
                                                          term "zimboes"
                                                          – p-zombies
                                                          that have </span><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
                                                          href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second-order_logic"
title="Second-order logic"
style="text-decoration:none;color:rgb(11,0,128);background-image:none;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial;font-family:sans-serif;font-size:14px"
target="_blank">second-order beliefs</a><span
                                                          style="color:rgb(37,37,37);font-family:sans-serif;font-size:14px"> –
                                                          to argue that
                                                          the idea of a
                                                          p-zombie is
                                                          incoherent;</span><sup
id="m_-1712693100872867830m_-502044300747996808m_-7144455735653961442m_-3864089206699251215m_1977091709976841212gmail-cite_ref-12"
class="m_-1712693100872867830m_-502044300747996808m_-7144455735653961442m_-3864089206699251215m_1977091709976841212gmail-reference"
style="line-height:1;unicode-bidi:isolate;white-space:nowrap;font-size:11.2px;color:rgb(37,37,37);font-family:sans-serif"><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
                                                          href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophical_zombie#cite_note-12"
style="text-decoration:none;color:rgb(11,0,128);background-image:none;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial;background-color:initial"
target="_blank">[12]</a></sup><span
                                                          style="color:rgb(37,37,37);font-family:sans-serif;font-size:14px"> "Zimboes
                                                          think</span><sup
style="line-height:1;font-size:11.2px;color:rgb(37,37,37);font-family:sans-serif">Z</sup><span
style="color:rgb(37,37,37);font-family:sans-serif;font-size:14px"> they
                                                          are conscious,
                                                          think</span><sup
style="line-height:1;font-size:11.2px;color:rgb(37,37,37);font-family:sans-serif">Z</sup><span
style="color:rgb(37,37,37);font-family:sans-serif;font-size:14px"> they
                                                          have qualia,
                                                          think</span><sup
style="line-height:1;font-size:11.2px;color:rgb(37,37,37);font-family:sans-serif">Z</sup><span
style="color:rgb(37,37,37);font-family:sans-serif;font-size:14px"> they
                                                          suffer pains –
                                                          they are just
                                                          'wrong'
                                                          (according to
                                                          this
                                                          lamentable
                                                          tradition), in
                                                          ways that
                                                          neither they
                                                          nor we could
                                                          ever
                                                          discover!".</span><sup
id="m_-1712693100872867830m_-502044300747996808m_-7144455735653961442m_-3864089206699251215m_1977091709976841212gmail-cite_ref-Dennett1995_4-2"
class="m_-1712693100872867830m_-502044300747996808m_-7144455735653961442m_-3864089206699251215m_1977091709976841212gmail-reference"
style="line-height:1;unicode-bidi:isolate;white-space:nowrap;font-size:11.2px;color:rgb(37,37,37);font-family:sans-serif"><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophical_zombie#cite_note-Dennett1995-4"
style="text-decoration:none;color:rgb(11,0,128);background-image:none;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial;background-color:initial"
target="_blank">[4]</a></sup><span
                                                          style="color:rgb(37,37,37);font-family:sans-serif;font-size:14px"> </span><br>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </blockquote>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div><br>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>I'm not
                                                          sure, however,
                                                          whether your
                                                          thought
                                                          experiment
                                                          sheds any new
                                                          light on the
                                                          concepts of
                                                          consciousness
                                                          or zombies. It
                                                          seems like it
                                                          may be only a
                                                          reformulation
                                                          of the "Barber
                                                          Paradox",
                                                          where the self
                                                          reflexivity is
                                                          a "power to
                                                          detect only
                                                          non-consciousness
                                                          things", aimed
                                                          at one's own
                                                          consciousness.</div>
                                                          <span
class="m_-1712693100872867830m_-502044300747996808m_-7144455735653961442m_-3864089206699251215HOEnZb"><font
color="#888888">
                                                          <div><br>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>Jason</div>
                                                          </font></span></div>
                                                          <div
class="m_-1712693100872867830m_-502044300747996808m_-7144455735653961442m_-3864089206699251215HOEnZb">
                                                          <div
class="m_-1712693100872867830m_-502044300747996808m_-7144455735653961442m_-3864089206699251215h5">
                                                          <div
                                                          class="gmail_extra"><br>
                                                          <div
                                                          class="gmail_quote">On
                                                          Fri, Dec 30,
                                                          2016 at 11:13
                                                          AM, Stuart
                                                          LaForge <span
                                                          dir="ltr"><<a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:avant@sollegro.com" target="_blank">avant@sollegro.com</a>></span>
                                                          wrote:<br>
                                                          <blockquote
                                                          class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Jason
                                                          Resch wrote:<br>
                                                          <Therefore,
                                                          if the brain
                                                          is a machine,
                                                          and is finite,
                                                          then an<br>
                                                          appropriately
                                                          programmed
                                                          computer can
                                                          perfectly
                                                          emulate any of
                                                          its<br>
                                                          behaviors.
                                                          Philosophers
                                                          generally fall
                                                          into one os
                                                          three camps,
                                                          on the<br>
                                                          question of
                                                          consciousness
                                                          and the
                                                          computational
                                                          theory of
                                                          mind:<br>
                                                          Non-computable
                                                          physicists [.
                                                          . .]Weak AI
                                                          proponents [.
                                                          . .]<br>
Computationalists.<br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          Which camp do
                                                          you consider
                                                          yourself
                                                          in?><br>
------------------------------<wbr>-------------<br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          As a general
                                                          rule, I prefer
                                                          not to go
                                                          camping with
                                                          philosophers
                                                          as I<br>
                                                          prefer the
                                                          rigor of
                                                          science and
                                                          mathematics.
                                                          But if I must
                                                          camp in that<br>
                                                          neck of the
                                                          woods, I would
                                                          set up my own
                                                          camp. I would
                                                          call it the<br>
                                                          Godelian camp
                                                          after Kurt
                                                          Godel. Since I
                                                          am a scientist
                                                          and not a<br>
                                                          philosopher, I
                                                          will explain
                                                          my views with
                                                          a thought
                                                          experiment
                                                          instead of<br>
                                                          an argument.<br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          Imagine if you
                                                          will a
                                                          solipsist.
                                                          Let's call him
                                                          Fred. Fred is
                                                          solopsist<br>
                                                          because he has
                                                          every reason
                                                          to believe he
                                                          lives alone in
                                                          a world of<br>
                                                          P-zombies.<br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          For the
                                                          uninitiated,
                                                          P-zombies are
                                                          philosophical
                                                          zombies.
                                                          Horrid beings<br>
                                                          that talk,
                                                          move, and act
                                                          like normal
                                                          folks but lack
                                                          any real
                                                          consciousness<br>
                                                          or
                                                          self-awareness.
                                                          They just go
                                                          through the
                                                          motions of
                                                          being
                                                          conscious but<br>
                                                          are not really
                                                          so.<br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          So ever since
                                                          Fred could
                                                          remember,
                                                          wherever he
                                                          looked, all he
                                                          could see<br>
                                                          were those
                                                          pesky
                                                          P-zombies.
                                                          They were
                                                          everywhere. He
                                                          could talk to
                                                          them,<br>
                                                          he could
                                                          interact with
                                                          them, and he
                                                          even married
                                                          one. And
                                                          because they
                                                          all<br>
                                                          act perfectly
                                                          conscious,
                                                          they would
                                                          fool most
                                                          anyone but
                                                          certainly not<br>
                                                          Fred.<br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          This was
                                                          because Fred
                                                          had, whether
                                                          you would
                                                          regard it as a
                                                          gift or curse,<br>
                                                          an unusual
                                                          ability. He
                                                          could always
                                                          see and
                                                          otherwise
                                                          sense
                                                          P-zombies but<br>
                                                          never normal
                                                          folk. Normal
                                                          folk were
                                                          always
                                                          invisible to
                                                          him and he
                                                          never<br>
                                                          could sense a
                                                          single one. So
                                                          he, being a
                                                          perfect
                                                          P-zombie
                                                          detector, came<br>
                                                          to believe
                                                          that he was
                                                          the only
                                                          normal person
                                                          on a planet
                                                          populated by<br>
                                                          P-zombies.<br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          Then one day
                                                          by chance he
                                                          happened to
                                                          glance in a
                                                          mirror . . .<br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          Does he see
                                                          himself?<br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          I want to hear
                                                          what the list
                                                          has to say
                                                          about this
                                                          before I give
                                                          my answer<br>
                                                          and my
                                                          interpretation
                                                          of what this
                                                          means for
                                                          strong AI and
                                                          the<br>
                                                          computational
                                                          theory of
                                                          mind.<br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          Stuart LaForge<br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          <br>
______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
                                                          extropy-chat
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                                                          moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org" target="_blank">extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</a><br>
                                                          <a
                                                          moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat"
                                                          rel="noreferrer"
target="_blank">http://lists.extropy.org/mailm<wbr>an/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat</a><br>
                                                          </blockquote>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <br>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <br>
______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
                                                          extropy-chat
                                                          mailing list<br>
                                                          <a
                                                          moz-do-not-send="true"
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                                                          <a
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href="http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat"
                                                          rel="noreferrer"
target="_blank">http://lists.extropy.org/mailm<wbr>an/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat</a><br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          </blockquote>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <br>
                                                        </div>
                                                      </div>
                                                    </div>
                                                    <br>
______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
                                                    extropy-chat mailing
                                                    list<br>
                                                    <a
                                                      moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org" target="_blank">extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</a><br>
                                                    <a
                                                      moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat"
                                                      rel="noreferrer"
                                                      target="_blank">http://lists.extropy.org/mailm<wbr>an/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat</a><br>
                                                    <br>
                                                  </blockquote>
                                                </div>
                                              </div>
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                                        <br>
                                        ______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
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                                          href="mailto:extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org"
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                                          href="http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat"
                                          rel="noreferrer"
                                          target="_blank">http://lists.extropy.org/mailm<wbr>an/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat</a><br>
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                              <br>
                              ______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
                              extropy-chat mailing list<br>
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                                href="mailto:extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org"
                                target="_blank">extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</a><br>
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                                href="http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat"
                                rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://lists.extropy.org/mailm<wbr>an/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat</a><br>
                              <br>
                            </blockquote>
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                    <br>
                    <pre>______________________________<wbr>_________________
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</pre>
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<pre wrap="">_______________________________________________
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</pre>

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