<div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-size:large">Since my brain works that way it is a reasonable hypothesis that your brain does too, but I'm not able to prove that and never will be able to. john</span><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-size:large"><br></span></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-size:large"> 'Prove' must mean something different to you than it does to me. To me it just means test - oh well, you know that.</span></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-size:large"><br></span></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-size:large">My point is that you can do the same test thousands of times with different subjects and keep getting the same results.</span></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-size:large"><br></span></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-size:large">Say you show them a red rose. All except the male color blind will respond 'red'. </span><span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-size:large"> A fMRI will show much the same firings in their brains from the same areas. Thus prediction of what they say and what went on in their brains is nearly 100% accurate.</span></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-size:large"><br></span></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-size:large"> Now I agree that one cannot show that the experience is exactly the same (but similar, that I would assume), but I would conclude that unless defective, showing red will result in saying red and the same brain areas stimulated. No need to mention consciousness.</span></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-size:large"> </span></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-size:large">What more do you want?</span></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-size:large"><br></span></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-size:large">bill w</span></div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Fri, Mar 17, 2017 at 11:47 AM, John Clark <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:johnkclark@gmail.com" target="_blank">johnkclark@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><span class=""><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif">On Thu, Mar 16, 2017 at 5:08 PM, Brent Allsop </span><span dir="ltr" style="font-family:arial,sans-serif"><<a href="mailto:brent.allsop@gmail.com" target="_blank">brent.allsop@gmail.com</a>></span><span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif"> wrote:</span><br></div><div class="gmail_extra"><div class="gmail_quote"> <br></div></div></span><div class="gmail_extra"><div class="gmail_quote"><span class=""><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:0.0001pt"></p><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline">> </div>It seems
evident from what you say here, that you haven't seen the video on detecting
qualia: <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AHuqZKxtOf4" target="_blank">https://www.youtube.com/watch?<wbr>v=AHuqZKxtOf4</a> . <span> </span>I think this will answer most of the questions
or issues you are pointing out here.<span> </span>Also,
you use the word "red" in ambiguous ways.<span> </span></blockquote><div> </div></span><div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline"></div><font size="4">You talk as if I was confused about the difference between objective and subjective<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline">,</div> but I assure you I am crystal clear on that point<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline">,</div> as it is to every sane person. In your video you mention a brilliant scientist who lived her entire life in a black and white world and then one day opens a door and for the first time sees a red rose. What has changed subjectively and objectively? I can't speak for the woman scientists but if it were me I'd be very surprised and delighted at seeing something new that I hadn't even imagined before.</font></div><div><br></div><div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline"></div><font size="4">Objectively if I knew enough </font><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline"><font size="4">about her </font></div><font size="4">neurology</font><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline"><font size="4"></font></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline"><font size="4"></font></div><font size="4"> I'd say that previously her brain only needed one dimension to represent the texture of objects but now 2 numbers are needed. Previously a scalar was sufficient but now a vector is needed. And even if I didn't know enough neurology to do that I'd still know there is something entirely new here because she would make a noise with her mouth that she had never made before that sounds like "<i>there is something entirely new here</i></font><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline"><font size="4">"</font></div><font size="4">.</font><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline"><font size="4"> </font></div><font size="4"> If instead she saw a white rose her brain would still only need </font><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline"><font size="4">one </font></div><font size="4">number to classify the texture of </font><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline"><font size="4">an </font></div><font size="4">object </font><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline"><font size="4">just as she always had </font></div><font size="4">so the noise made by her mouth would sound like "<i>I see nothing new here</i>"</font><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline"><font size="4">.</font></div></div><div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline"></div></div><font size="4">Suppose there were twin sisters, one lived her entire life in a black and red world and the other lived her entire life in a black and</font><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline"><font size="4"> </font></div><font size="4">green</font><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline"><font size="4"> </font></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline"><font size="4">world</font></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline"><font size="4">;</font></div><font size="4"> what difference in biology could you </font><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline"><font size="4">an</font></div><font size="4">outside observer detect between the two? There would be only one difference, in one the red cone cells in the retina showed more wear and tear</font><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline"><font size="4">,</font></div><font size="4"> while in the other the green cone cell in the retina </font><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline"><font size="4">would</font></div><font size="4">. So when one sister opened that door and saw the red rose the red cone cell was stimulated and sent the same signal to the brain it had done billions of time before and her brain had no difficulty classifying the texture of the flower with only one </font><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline"><font size="4">number</font></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline"><font size="4"> so her brain would send signals to her mouth causing it to make a noise like "<i>I see nothing new about that flower</i>". </font></div><font size="4">But with the other sister the red cone cell fired for the first time in her life and sent a novel signal to her brain unlike any she received before, a signal in which one number was no longer sufficient to classify</font><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline"><font size="4"> a texture, </font></div><font size="4"><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">so her brain would send signals to her mouth causing it to make a noise like "<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline"><i>Wow, </i></div><i>I see </i><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline"><i>something</i></div><i> new about that flower</i><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline">".</div></span></font></div><div class="gmail_quote"><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline"><br></div></span></div><div class="gmail_quote"><div class="gmail_default" style="display:inline"><font face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif" size="4">As far as subjectivity is concerned, although I will never be able to prove or disprove it my strong hunch is that living in a black and red world would be subjectively identical to living in a black and green world. I can say that without fear because even if I'm wrong you will never be able to provide evidence that I'm wrong. </font></div></div><div class="gmail_quote"><span class=""><div> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:0.0001pt"></p><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline">> </div>You like to think of a redness quale as particular patterns of firing
neurons,<span> </span></div></blockquote><div><br></div></span><div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline"><font size="4">If the </font></div><font size="4">particular pattern of neurons</font><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline"><font size="4"> firing in my brain changes then my redness quale changes, and if my redness quale changes then </font></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline"><font size="4">the </font></div><font size="4">particular pattern of neurons</font><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline"><font size="4"> firing in my brain changes; so the only thing a logical man can conclude from that is that my redness quale is caused but the pattern of neurons firing in my brain. And I like to think I am a logical man.</font></div></div><div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline"><br></div></div><div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline"><font size="4">Since my brain works that way it is a reasonable hypothesis that your brain does too, but I'm not able to prove that and never will be able to.</font></div></div><span class=""><div> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline">> </div>John thinks of them as
ineffable, or not sharable, or not approachable via objective science.<span> </span>Stathis thinks that redness is something
functional, independent of any particular hardware.<span> </span>All these are still theoretically possible,
or not yet falsified.<span></span><p></p></div></blockquote></span><div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline"><font size="4">Absolutely nothing about consciousness is falsifiable or provable except for my own consciousness, and even then the evidence is available only to me. That's why consciousness theories are so easy to dream up and that's why consciousness theories are a waste of time and that's why intelligence theories are not.<br><br> John K Clark</font></div></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div> </div><br><br><br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><div>
<div><br></div></div></blockquote></div></div></div>
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