<div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><font size="4">Brent, you asked:</font><br></div><div class="gmail_extra"><div class="gmail_quote"><br></div><div class="gmail_quote"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:12.8px;font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline">"</div><span style="font-size:12.8px">What could make "red", "OxF00" be experienced as redness and what differences does "green" or "0x0F0" cause you to experience greenness?</span><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:12.8px;font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline">"</div><br></div><div class="gmail_quote"><div><br></div><div><font size="4"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline">And then you wrote this:</div> </font></div><div><span style="font-size:12.8px"><br></span></div><div><span style="font-size:12.8px"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline">"Remember </div>, qualia just are - you experience them as is, there is no interpretation involved.<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline">"</div></span></div><div><span style="font-size:12.8px"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline"><br></div></span></div><div><font size="4"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline">I'd say you just answered your own question, some things are brute facts they "just are". </div> </font></div></div><div class="gmail_quote"><br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><span style="font-size:12.8px"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline">></div> redness just is. What is it, in your theory, that has this redness and greenness, that are experienced, as is, without any interpretation? </span></blockquote><div class="gmail_quote"><span style="font-size:12.8px"><br></span></div><div class="gmail_quote"><div class="gmail_default" style="display:inline"><font face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12.8px"></span><font size="4">That question makes no sense. If redness just is, if it's just a brute fact that X produces redness then there is no why, there is no what, it just is. I think it's a brute fact that consciousness is the way data feels when it is being processed, it just is. So nothing more of substance can be said about the fundamental nature of consciousness, but fear not, lots and lots more can be said about how intelligence works. </font></font></div><br></div><div class="gmail_quote"><div class="gmail_default" style="display:inline"><font face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif"><font size="4"><br></font></font></div></div><div class="gmail_quote"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><div bgcolor="#FFFFFF"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline">> </div>You, and john are completely missing the point, and making
obvious mistakes (as it seems to me) by doing so, and not modeling
things with anything in your theory that is redness, such that it
is distinguishable from greenness. <p></p></div></blockquote><div><font size="4"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline">It wouldn't be particularly difficult to make a robot that can distinguish red things from green things just as well as you can. Of course I don't know if the robot experiences red and green in the same way I do, but then I don't know that you do either. </div> </font><br></div><div> <div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline">> </div>Can you not see that
everything you are talking about is removing the ability to
distinguish between anything that is redness and greenness. </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><div bgcolor="#FFFFFF"><p></p></div></blockquote><div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><font size="4">No, I don't see that at all!. A robot can put red marbles in one bin and green marbles in another bin and I don't see how it could do that if it couldn't distinguish between red and green. </font></div><br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"> <div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline">> </div>Remember, that nothing but
this particular set of neurons, firing in exactly the right
functional way, outputting the correct neurotransmitter at the
right time will convince the binding neuron/system that it is
redness, which is different than greenness. </blockquote><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><div bgcolor="#FFFFFF"><p></p></div></blockquote><font size="4">If that is true you can never prove it's true, but if it is true then you and I do NOT experience the redness qualia the same way because our brains are NOT exactly the same so the particular set of neurons in your brain are NOT firing in exactly the same functional way in my brain and they are NOT outputting the same neurotransmitter at exactly same time.</font><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><div bgcolor="#FFFFFF"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline"><br>> </div>Earlier, Stathis claimed: "But the comparison of redness and
greenness, or anything else whatsoever that the system does, will
necessarily occur provided only that the substituted part is
behaviourally identical" In other words, you are saying that
there is a way to distinguish between redness and greenness, as
long as it is behaviorally identical. <p></p></div></blockquote><div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large;font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline">I think Stathis is claiming if something can distinguish between red and green and then one part of the thing is substituted for another part that is </div><span style="font-size:large">behaviorally identical</span><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large;font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline"> then that thing can still </div><span style="font-size:large;font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">distinguish between red and green<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline">,</div><div class="gmail_default" style="display:inline"> because otherwise it wouldn't be </div></span><span style="font-size:large">behaviorally identical</span><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large;font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline">. How on earth can anybody dispute that?</div><span style="font-size:large;font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"> </span><br></div><div><br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">>you can't see the mistake you are making with this. If you swap anything being presented to the binding system, with anything that is not redness,</blockquote><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><div bgcolor="#FFFFFF"><p></p></div></blockquote><div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><font size="4">A neuron is not saying anything about redness, all it's saying is this is chemical X. In fact it's not even saying that, it's saying this is <i>probably </i>chemical X because neurons can be fooled; masquerading as chemicals they are not is how many neurotoxins work. </font></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><font size="4"><br></font></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><font size="4">John K Clark </font></div><br></div><div bgcolor="#FFFFFF"><span class="gmail-m_6101047486726404397gmail-HOEnZb"><font color="#888888"><p><br></p></font></span></div></div></div></div>