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<p>Hi Stathis,</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>You, and john are completely missing the point, and making
obvious mistakes (as it seems to me) by doing so, and not modeling
things with anything in your theory that is redness, such that it
is distinguishable from greenness. Can you not see that
everything you are talking about is removing the ability to
distinguish between anything that is redness and greenness.
Remember, for Stathis, every time I use the word "glutamate" you
should think of a pattern of neurons firing in a particular
"functional" way, that is a redness experience. And you have a
binding neuron that can detect the function that is redness, and
tell when it is different than the a different set of neurons,
functioning as a greenness experience. Remember, that nothing but
this particular set of neurons, firing in exactly the right
functional way, outputting the correct neurotransmitter at the
right time will convince the binding neuron/system that it is
redness, which is different than greenness. So, when you are
representing redness with a 0 (anything that does not have
redness), you must interpret this zero, back into the correct set
of neurotransmitters being fed to the detecting neuron, in the
right functional pattern. And all ones, anything that is not
greeness, must be translated back to the identical functional set
of synapses neurotransmitter firings, before the not yet replaced
binding neuron will say: "Yes that is still redness". In other
words, when you replace all the redness functions with ones, and
all the greenness functions with zeros, they all must be
translated back to the right set of functional synapses firing,
and fed to the binding neuron, for it to say: That compost
experience is made up of redness and greenness.</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>The mistake in Stathis logic is revealed when he says things
like: " It cannot possibly say "wait, back up, that glycine isn't
anything like its neighbouring redness glutamate", because the
neurons controlling speech will all be firing in exactly the same
way as before." Can you not see how this is removing any
necessary functionality required to distinguish between redness
and greenness? The binding system, whatever you theorize it might
be, must be able to detect the difference between whatever it is
that is doing the greenness function, and whatever is doing the
gredness function, and whatever is doing a oneness function, and
whatever it is that is doing the zeroness function. If you
present anything to the binding system, without the proper
interpretation mechanism, converting back to the real redness it
can detect, it must be able to fire differently, saying that is
not real redness. Otherwise you are removing the ability to
distinguish between redness and greenness, whatever it is.</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>Once you replace simple glutamate and glycene, with very
complected things like sets of functioning neurons firing in a
particular functional way, things become so complicated, you can't
see the theoretical qualitative mistakes you are making. You must
remember that your continued arguments against glutamate not being
redness do not apply. As they only are redness and greenness in
the idealized simplified theoretical world. As I've said many
times, this has nothing to do with the obviously much more complex
real world. It is just meant as a simplistic model, so you can
think about the fact that there must be something that is doing
the redness function and there must be something that is doing the
greenness function. And there must be womething that can bind
these two together into a composit qualitative experience that can
say: "Yes, those are qualitatively different" - not fire in the
same way, when they are substituted out and replaced with
something else.</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>Earlier, Stathis claimed: "But the comparison of redness and
greenness, or anything else whatsoever that the system does, will
necessarily occur provided only that the substituted part is
behaviourally identical" In other words, you are saying that
there is a way to distinguish between redness and greenness, as
long as it is behaviorally identical. But you can't see the
mistake you are making with this. If you swap anything being
presented to the binding system, with anything that is not
redness, especially a 1, it must say: "that is not redness" it
cannot say it is redness, or behave in the same way. It must
behave differently, otherwise it is not functioning correctly and
not able to distinguish qualitative differences.<br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>Brent<br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 3/24/2017 8:36 PM, Stathis
Papaioannou wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CAH=2ypW2gg60=VbtjmwYC6U69kZXkcizqnOoj5uL18ejjYj32A@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div>On Sat., 25 Mar. 2017 at 9:07 am, Brent Allsop <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:brent.allsop@gmail.com" target="_blank">brent.allsop@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div class="m_-7220310328406744882gmail_msg"><br
class="m_-7220310328406744882gmail_msg">
<p class="MsoNormal m_-7220310328406744882gmail_msg"
style="margin-bottom:0.0001pt">Hi Status,</p>
<p class="MsoNormal m_-7220310328406744882gmail_msg"
style="margin-bottom:0.0001pt"> </p>
</div>
<div class="m_-7220310328406744882gmail_msg">
<div class="gmail_extra m_-7220310328406744882gmail_msg"><br
class="m_-7220310328406744882gmail_msg">
<div class="gmail_quote
m_-7220310328406744882gmail_msg">On Fri, Mar 24,
2017 at 2:50 PM, Stathis Papaioannou <span
class="m_-7220310328406744882gmail_msg"><<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:stathisp@gmail.com"
class="m_-7220310328406744882gmail_msg"
target="_blank">stathisp@gmail.com</a>></span>
wrote:<br class="m_-7220310328406744882gmail_msg">
<blockquote class="gmail_quote
m_-7220310328406744882gmail_msg" style="margin:0px
0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div class="m_-7220310328406744882gmail_msg"><br
class="m_-7220310328406744882gmail_msg">
<div class="gmail_quote
m_-7220310328406744882gmail_msg"><span
class="m_-7220310328406744882m_-3859957978643031897gmail-
m_-7220310328406744882gmail_msg">
<div class="m_-7220310328406744882gmail_msg"><br
class="m_-7220310328406744882gmail_msg">
</div>
</span>
<div class="m_-7220310328406744882gmail_msg">I
think you imagine that if glutamate is
changed and glutamate is responsible for red
qualia, then distal parts of the system
(such as those reporting red qualia) will
change even if all the physical interactions
of the glutamate substitute are the same.
But that is impossible.</div>
<span
class="m_-7220310328406744882m_-3859957978643031897gmail-
m_-7220310328406744882gmail_msg">
<div class="m_-7220310328406744882gmail_msg"><br
class="m_-7220310328406744882gmail_msg">
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote
m_-7220310328406744882gmail_msg"
style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div
class="m_-7220310328406744882m_-3859957978643031897gmail-m_-3454057986078481406gmail_msg
m_-7220310328406744882gmail_msg"><br
class="m_-7220310328406744882gmail_msg">
</div>
</blockquote>
</span></div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br class="m_-7220310328406744882gmail_msg">
</div>
</div>
<div class="m_-7220310328406744882gmail_msg">
<div class="gmail_extra m_-7220310328406744882gmail_msg">
<p class="MsoNormal m_-7220310328406744882gmail_msg"
style="margin-bottom:0.0001pt">Ha, with
this I think I’ve caught you in another clear
example of the isolationist
mistake you are making.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal m_-7220310328406744882gmail_msg"
style="margin-bottom:0.0001pt"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal m_-7220310328406744882gmail_msg"
style="margin-bottom:0.0001pt">If glutamate
was redness, then the one neuron representing the
one voxel element
representing the one spot on the surface of the
strawberry, would be firing on
all of its many, maybe even tens of thousands of its
downstream synapses with
glutamate.<span
class="m_-7220310328406744882gmail_msg"> </span>And
if you changed glutamate,
with glycene in any one of those synapses, the
entire system would be screaming:
“Wait, back up, that glycine isn’t anything like
it’s neighboring redness glutamate,
until you replace that incorrect glycine in that one
synapse, and interpreted
it qualitatively correctly, by interpreting it back
to real redness, um I mean
real glutamate.<span
class="m_-7220310328406744882gmail_msg"> </span>Then
you would have to
repeat this same problem, until you replace all the
glutamate, um a mean
redness detectors in the entire brain, all in one
big substitution step, and
only then replace the entire comparison system,
including all memory of
glutamate, I mean redness, with glycine.<span
class="m_-7220310328406744882gmail_msg">
</span>And only then, with that massive substitution
(it sucks how this massive
substitution requirement always gets left out of
your simplistic example),
would you finally be able to have it substituted to
be a qualia (or oneness and
zeroness) invert where greenness, and all memory of
such, has been replaced
with redness, (or oneness) and visa versa.</p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>If you replace glutamate with glycine then yes, the
whole system would be screaming that something was
terribly wrong, because glycine will have no effect on
glutamate receptors. Not only will any redness detection
function fail, but the whole brain will probably stop
working and the subject will die. That is why you have to
do a more elaborate replacement: glutamate with glycine,
glutamate receptors with glycine receptors (simplistically
- you have to also make sure that the glycine receptors
operate the same ion channels etc. as the glutamate
receptors). Once you do this, the whole brain will work in
the same way as before the substitution. It cannot
possibly say "wait, back up, that glycine isn't anything
like its neighbouring redness glutamate", because the
neurons controlling speech will all be firing in exactly
the same way as before.<br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<br>
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