I looked it up, the Swiss have the highest life expectancy in Europe:<div><a href="https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_European_countries_by_life_expectancy">https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_European_countries_by_life_expectancy</a><br><div><br></div><div>And one of the lowest percentages of GDP spent on health care.</div><div><a href="https://www.forbes.com/sites/theapothecary/2011/04/29/why-switzerland-has-the-worlds-best-health-care-system/">https://www.forbes.com/sites/theapothecary/2011/04/29/why-switzerland-has-the-worlds-best-health-care-system/</a></div><div><br></div><div>The Swiss model is not single payer but is consumer driven, with individuals purchasing insurance directly.</div><div><br></div><div>Clearly their model is cheaper than ours, since they also spend a much smaller fraction of their GDP than the US. </div><div><br></div><div>But the US also subsidizes medical research for the rest of the world and tolerates monopolistic price fixing which leads to much greater costs.</div><div><br></div><div>Jason</div><div><br>On Friday, March 31, 2017, Jason Resch <<a href="mailto:jasonresch@gmail.com">jasonresch@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">I know better than to argue with you, but I want to note that your have not presented experimental data but a somewhat cherry-picked observation. Which at best can be used to develop a hypothesis, and design an experiment, but not to reach any conclusion.<div><br></div><div>Using observational data rather than experimental data often leads to incorrect conclusions, because there are infinite possible correlated variables at play, and only controlled experiments can separate them. This is what led to 40 years of questionable nutritional advice regarding fat. Now thoroughly debunked with experiments, and in my opinion, largely to blame for the country's deteriorating health.</div><div><br></div><div>As Feynman reminds us, the easiest person to full is ourself. Scientists need to try as hard as possible to disprove their own theories.</div><div><br></div><div>Here are some other possible explanations of life expectancy differences:</div><div><br></div><div>- Different diets</div><div>- Poor that are worse off</div><div>- More stressful lives (less safety net)</div><div>- Less access to higher education</div><div>- Less paid vacation and maternal leave</div><div>- Higher homicide rates</div><div>- Higher accident rates (we drive more)</div><div>- Different racial make ups</div><div>- More incarceration</div><div>- Subsidized and cheap junk foods</div><div>- Opiod over prescription</div><div>- Drug war</div><div>- Less healthcare as a result of not being single payer</div><div><br></div><div>Now given all the possible causes I listed, how do you conclude single payer is the only or most significant factor in determining life expectancy?</div><div><br></div><div>Switzerland has a similar model to the US, how does their life expectancy compare to the rest of Europe?</div><div><br></div><div>While correlations can't prove causation, counter examples can disprove causal relations. If the Swiss pay less and live longer than other countries, there might be a flaw in your conclusion.</div><div><br></div><div>I agree that the US would likely be better off with single payer, but I disagree with using your single statistic as the basis of reaching such a conclusion.</div><div><br></div><div>Jason</div><div><br></div><div><br>On Friday, March 31, 2017, John Clark <<a href="javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','johnkclark@gmail.com');" target="_blank">johnkclark@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif">On Fri, Mar 31, 2017 at 4:40 PM, Dan TheBookMan </span><span dir="ltr" style="font-family:arial,sans-serif"><<a>danust2012@gmail.com</a>></span><span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif"> wrote:</span><br></div><div class="gmail_extra"><div class="gmail_quote"><br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="auto"><span><span></span></span><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><span><span>><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline">></div> </span><font size="4">Factoid?? We're talking about the results of a experiment that lasted<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline"> </div>decades involved about a billion people and cost trillions of dollars,<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline"> </div>and the results are clear as a bell; like it or not single payer<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline"> </div>countries get more bang for their buck, they live longer and spend<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline"> </div>less, a lot less. As a libertarian I wish the facts could have produced<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline"> </div>a different conclusion but reality doesn't give a damn what I prefer.</font></span></blockquote></div></blockquote><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><br></blockquote><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="auto"><div><span><span></span></span><span><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline">> </div>Whoa! The strict libertarian position is<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline"> [...]</div></span></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline"><font size="4">Irrelevant. The USA system does not conform with the </font></div><font size="4">strict libertarian position<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline"></div> <div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline">and n</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline">either does the single payer system of the 30 countries that beat the hell out of the USA system in both cost and quality. However the USA is closer to the </div>strict libertarian position<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline"> than the single payer plan. As a libertarian I wish I could say it was the other way around but I can not because I value the truth even more than I value libertarianism. </div></font></div><br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="auto"><div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><span><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline">>> <font size="4"></font></div><font size="4">I don't know which question of yours I've sidestepped,</font></span></blockquote><span><span></span><br></span><span><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline">> </div>Well, I've only posted them twice on March 28, so here goes for a third time (rewording them slightly in hopes this helps you to answer them):</span><br><span></span><br><span>1. What are the historical rates of life expectancy for all nations?</span></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><font size="4">In all the 31 nations I mentioned, including the USA, both the life expectancy and the percentage of GNP spent on healthcare have increased, some much more than others, and it is by examining those differential increases we can learn things. </font></div></div><br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="auto"><div><span></span><span>2. Are there any nations with single payer systems that have shorter than the US life expectancy?</span></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><font size="4">I honestly don't know. I would guess the answer is yes but I don't know for certain. I'm sure you could find out in a hour or two with a little help from Google, I could too but I'm not going to because the answer doesn't interest me. If there is such a country you can be certain they spend dramatically less on healthcare than the USA, every country does, so there would be no surprise and nothing to learn if their citizens have shorter lives. We can learn from the 30 countries that spend less and get more not from the countries that spend less and get less.</font></div></div><br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="auto"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><font size="4">><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline">></div> </font><span style="font-size:large">but I know of a question of mine that you have sidestepped: if</span><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large;font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline"> </div><span style="font-size:large">the 30 single payer countries I mentioned spent twice as much</span><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large;font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline"> </div><span style="font-size:large">on healthcare as the USA and yet their citizens had shorter</span><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large;font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline"> </div><span style="font-size:large">lives than the USA would you be complaining about sampling</span><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large;font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline"> </div><span style="font-size:large">errors and experimental bias?</span></blockquote></div></blockquote><div><br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="auto"><div><span><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline">> </div>No, I didn't sidestep your question.</span></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline"><font size="4">Well it sure seemed that way to me because I looked and looked but I couldn't find a "yes" or a "no" anywhere.</font></div></div><div> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="auto"><div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline">> </div>it would be still be the correct thing to ask these questions about the data and not merely accept a single piece of data as the decisive element in our policy choices.</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline"><font size="4">This is not a </font></div><font size="4">single piece of data<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline">!! This is the result of a experiment lasting decades involving a billion people and trillions of dollars and no matter how you try to spin it the less libertarian side won. I really and truly wish it had gone the other way but unlike Trump I refuse to wage war on reality. </div></font></div><div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline"><font size="4"><br></font></div></div><div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline"><font size="4">John K Clark </font></div></div><div><br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><br></blockquote></div><br></div></div>
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