<div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><div class="gmail_quote" style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.8px"><font size="4">I have a hunch they might be on the right track and thus I may not be the only conscious being in the universe<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline"> after all</div>, but neither they nor I will ever be able to prove it. </font></div><div class="gmail_quote" style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.8px"><font size="4"><br></font></div><div class="gmail_quote" style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.8px"><font size="4"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline"> John K Clark</div></font></div><div class="gmail_quote" style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.8px"><font size="4"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline"><br></div></font></div><div class="gmail_quote" style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.8px"><font size="4"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline">Here's the thing: I want to get you to agree that study of alertness, or whatever you want to call it, is or can be scientific. It is clearly a variable within and between people, it seems to account for a lot of what we see coming or no coming out of a person (coma, for ex.), and thus it needs a name and I don't care what that is. </div></font></div><div class="gmail_quote" style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.8px"><font size="4"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline"><br></div></font></div><div class="gmail_quote" style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.8px"><font size="4"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline">It all comes down to definitions, or examples if you want, and whether you or I are anyone is conscious is dependent on what examples or definitions we choose, and thus we can clearly say that someone is or isn't conscious depending on those examples or definitions. </div></font></div><div class="gmail_quote" style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.8px"><font size="4"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline"><br></div></font></div><div class="gmail_quote" style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.8px"><font size="4"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline">If I poke you while asleep and while awake I will get very similar behavior to what others will show, and thus this is a test, or proof, of whatever you choose to name the variable in question. If this is not a test of consciousness according to the examples you would like to use, then I'd like to know what you would use. If you think that no one will ever prove that others are conscious then poking will not suffice as an example in your opinion.</div></font></div><div class="gmail_quote" style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.8px"><font size="4"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline"><br></div></font></div><div class="gmail_quote" style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.8px"><font size="4"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline">Every abstract variable, as I am sure I don't have to tell you, is always and forever in an 'as if' context. It is 'as if' they have a big ego, or high intelligence, or low sociability, or poor use of language. So as with consciousness: it is 'as if' they are conscious if they respond in certain ways in certain conditions. Thus consciousness is not a fact of life; it is a theoretical construct explaining certain facts. It thus can never 'be' a fact.</div></font></div><div class="gmail_quote" style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.8px"><font size="4"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline"><br></div></font></div><div class="gmail_quote" style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.8px"><font size="4"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline">bill w</div></font></div></div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Sun, Apr 2, 2017 at 12:15 PM, John Clark <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:johnkclark@gmail.com" target="_blank">johnkclark@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><br></div><div class="gmail_extra"><span class=""><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Sun, Apr 2, 2017 at 9:34 AM, William Flynn Wallace <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:foozler83@gmail.com" target="_blank">foozler83@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:</div></span><div class="gmail_quote"><span class=""><br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">You poke someone who is asleep and get no behavior. You poke them when awake and they might poke you back. Clear link between behavior and consciousness/awareness/ alertness/pick your term. You don't need assumptions</blockquote><div><br></div><div><br></div></span><font size="4"><span class="">You don't need assumptions<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline"> </div></span>to know that people in the awake state behave differently than people in the sleep state, but so what, we're talking about consciousness<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline"> </div>not behavior. The assumption is so deeply ingrained we seldom even think about it,<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline"> </div>but it's there. Most people believe a sleeping person or a rock or a tree or a human cadaver is not conscious because<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline"> </div>they<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline"> </div>implicitly or explicitly<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline"> </div>assume there is a link between intelligent behavior and consciousness. Perhaps they're assumption is correct, I have a hunch they might be on the right track and thus I may not be the only conscious being in the universe<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline"> after all</div>, but neither they nor I will ever be able to prove it. </font></div><div class="gmail_quote"><font size="4"><br></font></div><div class="gmail_quote"><font size="4"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline"> John K Clark</div><br></font><div><div class="gmail_default" style="display:inline"><font face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif" size="4"><br></font></div></div><div><div class="gmail_default" style="display:inline"><font face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif" size="4"><br></font></div></div><div><div class="gmail_default" style="display:inline"><font face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif" size="4"> </font></div> </div></div></div></div>
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