<div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div>On Wed, 5 Apr 2017 at 7:47 am, Colin Hales <<a href="mailto:col.hales@gmail.com">col.hales@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div class="gmail_msg"><br class="gmail_msg"><div class="gmail_extra gmail_msg"><br class="gmail_msg"><div class="gmail_quote gmail_msg">On Mon, Apr 3, 2017 at 3:46 PM, Stathis Papaioannou <span class="gmail_msg"><<a href="mailto:stathisp@gmail.com" class="gmail_msg" target="_blank">stathisp@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br class="gmail_msg"><blockquote class="gmail_quote gmail_msg" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;padding-left:1ex;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid"><div class="gmail_msg"><div style="font-size:12.8px" class="gmail_msg"><span class="gmail_msg"><div class="gmail_extra gmail_msg"><div class="gmail_quote gmail_msg"><span class="m_-6868105472900026351gmail-m_-639166614990364612gmail-im gmail_msg">On Apr 2, 2017 22:46, "Stathis Papaioannou" <<a href="mailto:stathisp@gmail.com" class="gmail_msg" target="_blank">stathisp@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br type="attribution" class="gmail_msg"></span><blockquote class="m_-6868105472900026351gmail-m_-639166614990364612gmail-m_2683848510843480609quote gmail_msg" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;padding-left:1ex;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid"><span class="m_-6868105472900026351gmail-m_-639166614990364612gmail-im gmail_msg"><div class="gmail_msg"><div class="m_-6868105472900026351gmail-m_-639166614990364612gmail-m_2683848510843480609quoted-text gmail_msg"><div class="gmail_extra gmail_msg" style="font-size:12.8px"><div class="gmail_quote gmail_msg"><br class="gmail_msg"></div></div></div><div class="gmail_extra gmail_msg"><div class="m_-6868105472900026351gmail-m_-639166614990364612gmail-m_2683848510843480609elided-text gmail_msg"><br class="gmail_msg"><br class="gmail_msg"></div>It is not obvious that a computation about nature can be conscious, but neither is it obvious that it cannot.<font color="#888888" class="gmail_msg"><br clear="all" class="gmail_msg"><div class="gmail_msg"><br class="gmail_msg"></div><div class="gmail_msg"><br class="gmail_msg"></div>-- <br class="gmail_msg"><div class="m_-6868105472900026351gmail-m_-639166614990364612gmail-m_2683848510843480609m_2068019221341716712gmail_signature gmail_msg">Stathis Papaioannou</div></font></div></div><br class="gmail_msg"></span></blockquote></div></div></span></div></div></blockquote></div></div></div><div class="gmail_msg"><div class="gmail_extra gmail_msg"><div class="gmail_quote gmail_msg"><blockquote class="gmail_quote gmail_msg" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;padding-left:1ex;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid"><div class="gmail_msg"><div style="font-size:12.8px" class="gmail_msg"><span class="gmail_msg"><div class="gmail_extra gmail_msg"><div class="gmail_quote gmail_msg"><blockquote class="m_-6868105472900026351gmail-m_-639166614990364612gmail-m_2683848510843480609quote gmail_msg" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;padding-left:1ex;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid"><span class="m_-6868105472900026351gmail-m_-639166614990364612gmail-im gmail_msg">_______________________________________________<br class="gmail_msg">extropy-chat mailing list<br class="gmail_msg"><a href="mailto:extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org" class="gmail_msg" target="_blank">extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</a><br class="gmail_msg"><a href="http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat" rel="noreferrer" class="gmail_msg" target="_blank">http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat</a><br class="gmail_msg"><br class="gmail_msg"></span></blockquote></div></div></span></div></div></blockquote></div></div></div><div class="gmail_msg"><div class="gmail_extra gmail_msg"><div class="gmail_quote gmail_msg"><blockquote class="gmail_quote gmail_msg" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;padding-left:1ex;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid"><div class="gmail_msg"><div style="font-size:12.8px" class="gmail_msg"><span class="gmail_msg"><div class="gmail_extra gmail_msg"><div class="gmail_quote gmail_msg"><blockquote class="m_-6868105472900026351gmail-m_-639166614990364612gmail-m_2683848510843480609quote gmail_msg" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;padding-left:1ex;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid"></blockquote></div><br class="gmail_msg"></div></span><div class="gmail_msg"><div class="m_-6868105472900026351gmail-h5 gmail_msg"><div class="gmail_extra gmail_msg"><span style="font-size:small" class="gmail_msg">On 3 April 2017 at 14:17, Will Steinberg </span><span style="font-size:small" class="gmail_msg"><<a href="mailto:steinberg.will@gmail.com" class="gmail_msg" target="_blank">steinberg.will@gmail.com</a>></span><span style="font-size:small" class="gmail_msg"> wrote:</span><br class="gmail_msg"></div></div></div></div><div class="gmail_extra gmail_msg"><div class="gmail_msg"><div class="m_-6868105472900026351gmail-h5 gmail_msg"><div class="gmail_quote gmail_msg"><blockquote class="gmail_quote gmail_msg" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;padding-left:1ex;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid"><div class="gmail_msg"><div class="gmail_extra gmail_msg"><div class="gmail_quote gmail_msg"><span class="m_-6868105472900026351gmail-m_-639166614990364612gmail- gmail_msg">On Apr 2, 2017 22:46, "Stathis Papaioannou" <<a href="mailto:stathisp@gmail.com" class="gmail_msg" target="_blank">stathisp@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br type="attribution" class="gmail_msg"></span><blockquote class="m_-6868105472900026351gmail-m_-639166614990364612gmail-m_2683848510843480609quote gmail_msg" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;padding-left:1ex;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid"><span class="m_-6868105472900026351gmail-m_-639166614990364612gmail- gmail_msg"><div class="gmail_msg"><div class="m_-6868105472900026351gmail-m_-639166614990364612gmail-m_2683848510843480609quoted-text gmail_msg"><div class="gmail_extra gmail_msg" style="font-size:12.8px"><div class="gmail_quote gmail_msg"><br class="gmail_msg"></div></div></div><div class="gmail_extra gmail_msg"><div class="m_-6868105472900026351gmail-m_-639166614990364612gmail-m_2683848510843480609elided-text gmail_msg"><br class="gmail_msg"><br class="gmail_msg"></div>It is not obvious that a computation about nature can be conscious, but neither is it obvious that it cannot.<font color="#888888" class="gmail_msg"><br clear="all" class="gmail_msg"><div class="gmail_msg"><br class="gmail_msg"></div><div class="gmail_msg"><br class="gmail_msg"></div>-- <br class="gmail_msg"><div class="m_-6868105472900026351gmail-m_-639166614990364612gmail-m_2683848510843480609m_2068019221341716712gmail_signature gmail_msg">Stathis Papaioannou</div>
</font></div></div>
<br class="gmail_msg"></span></blockquote></div></div></div></blockquote></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div></div></div><div class="gmail_msg"><div class="gmail_extra gmail_msg"><div class="gmail_quote gmail_msg"><blockquote class="gmail_quote gmail_msg" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;padding-left:1ex;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid"><div class="gmail_msg"><div class="gmail_extra gmail_msg"><div class="gmail_msg"><div class="m_-6868105472900026351gmail-h5 gmail_msg"><div class="gmail_quote gmail_msg"><blockquote class="gmail_quote gmail_msg" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;padding-left:1ex;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid"><div class="gmail_msg"><div class="gmail_extra gmail_msg"><div class="gmail_quote gmail_msg"><blockquote class="m_-6868105472900026351gmail-m_-639166614990364612gmail-m_2683848510843480609quote gmail_msg" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;padding-left:1ex;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid"><span class="m_-6868105472900026351gmail-m_-639166614990364612gmail- gmail_msg">_______________________________________________<br class="gmail_msg">
extropy-chat mailing list<br class="gmail_msg">
<a href="mailto:extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org" class="gmail_msg" target="_blank">extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</a><br class="gmail_msg">
<a href="http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat" rel="noreferrer" class="gmail_msg" target="_blank">http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat</a><br class="gmail_msg">
<br class="gmail_msg"></span></blockquote></div></div></div></blockquote></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div></div></div><div class="gmail_msg"><div class="gmail_extra gmail_msg"><div class="gmail_quote gmail_msg"><blockquote class="gmail_quote gmail_msg" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;padding-left:1ex;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid"><div class="gmail_msg"><div class="gmail_extra gmail_msg"><div class="gmail_msg"><div class="m_-6868105472900026351gmail-h5 gmail_msg"><div class="gmail_quote gmail_msg"><blockquote class="gmail_quote gmail_msg" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;padding-left:1ex;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid"><div class="gmail_msg"><div class="gmail_extra gmail_msg"><div class="gmail_quote gmail_msg"><blockquote class="m_-6868105472900026351gmail-m_-639166614990364612gmail-m_2683848510843480609quote gmail_msg" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;padding-left:1ex;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid"></blockquote></div><br class="gmail_msg"></div><div class="gmail_extra gmail_msg">All the 'computations about nature' that have ever been and will ever be discussed in this list were *designed by conscious beings*, also known as consciousness.</div><div class="gmail_extra gmail_msg"><br class="gmail_msg"></div><div class="gmail_extra gmail_msg">You're making the same mistake as the Chinese Room, which is neglecting the fact that someone had to build the room itself.</div></div>
</blockquote></div><br class="gmail_msg"><br class="gmail_msg"></div></div>Are you implying that it would make a difference how the entity whose consciousness was in question was made? For example, consider three identical robots, one made by humans, the second by weird aliens, the third thrown together from spare parts by a tornado: would you expect that they would have different consciousnesses?<span class="m_-6868105472900026351gmail-HOEnZb gmail_msg"><font color="#888888" class="gmail_msg"><br clear="all" class="gmail_msg"><div class="gmail_msg"><br class="gmail_msg"></div>-- <br class="gmail_msg"><div class="m_-6868105472900026351gmail-m_-639166614990364612gmail_signature gmail_msg">Stathis Papaioannou</div>
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<br class="gmail_msg"></blockquote><div class="gmail_msg"><br class="gmail_msg"></div><div class="gmail_msg">No. Of course, in identically constructed robots, each consciousness would have different contents and individuate each robot. But the robots would have their consciousness originate in the same kind of physics (the same kind of matter arranged and behaving in the  same kinds of ways). It's the essential kind of physics of it that matters. In 'being' that, and only that kind, arranged in the same way, that makes it 'like something' to be that matter. In my case, as you probably know, that physics is the EM field system. Dorian Aur would have it originate only from ions in a cellular context. I would have it originate using electrons in an inorganic context. ... And the quantum mechanics comes along for the ride. An EM field account of consciousness is also a quantum mechanical account of consciousness. But ... I digress.</div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I see the way you think, but if consciousness is dependent on a particular substrate or process, it would lead to the problems pointed out in Chalmers' "Fading Qualia" argument: decoupling of consciousness from brain activity and behaviour.</div><div><br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div class="gmail_msg"><div class="gmail_extra gmail_msg"><div class="gmail_quote gmail_msg"><div class="gmail_msg"></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div></div><div dir="ltr">-- <br></div><div data-smartmail="gmail_signature">Stathis Papaioannou</div>