<div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0)">Thanks for the physiology refresher.</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0)"> <span style="color:rgb(80,0,80);font-size:12.8px;font-family:arial,sans-serif"> </span><span style="color:rgb(80,0,80);font-size:12.8px;font-family:arial,sans-serif"> What characteristics do we have to find to determine whether a person is conscious?</span></div><span class="gmail-im" style="font-size:12.8px"><div> </div></span><div style="font-size:12.8px"><font size="4"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline">Intelligent behavior of course, that's why I think somebody taking a calculus exam is probably conscious but somebody sleeping or under </div></font><font face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif" size="4">anesthesia<div class="gmail_default" style="display:inline"> or</div></font><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:large"> dead probably is not. </span></div><div style="font-size:12.8px"><font size="4"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline"><br></div></font></div><div style="font-size:12.8px"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large;font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline"> John K Clark </div><span style="font-size:large"> </span></div><div style="font-size:12.8px"><span style="font-size:large">T<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0);display:inline">ell me we are not going to have an infinite regress here. Now we have to define intelligent behavior. My example of the tree communicating with nearby trees was not tongue in cheek. Doing something that may help your species survive has to be intelligent behavior, no? I can even see this as altruistic since the tree gets nothing in return (signals from other trees would do, but does the tree know that?)</div></span></div><div style="font-size:12.8px"><span style="font-size:large"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0);display:inline"><br></div></span></div><div style="font-size:12.8px"><span style="font-size:large"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0);display:inline">Do we just hook up auditory, visual, olfactory etc. sensors and call what the Ai gets through those sensations? Why not. Then we program it to react in certain ways to certain stimuli and call those emotions, though since each human is unique we will have to choose the reactions from a list of possibles. The AI might be programmed to love the Stooges but not Mark Twain, for example. Is this what is envisioned? Will we program the AI to share its experiences with other Ais? Stimulus and response generalization also will have to be programmed.</div></span></div><div style="font-size:12.8px"><span style="font-size:large"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0);display:inline"><br></div></span></div><div style="font-size:12.8px"><span style="font-size:large"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0);display:inline">bill w </div></span></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Sun, May 28, 2017 at 6:28 PM, John Clark <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:johnkclark@gmail.com" target="_blank">johnkclark@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><span class=""><div style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif">On Sat, May 27, 2017 William Flynn Wallace </span><span dir="ltr" style="font-family:arial,sans-serif"><<a href="mailto:foozler83@gmail.com" target="_blank">foozler83@gmail.com</a>></span><span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif"> wrote:</span><br></div></span><div class="gmail_extra"><div class="gmail_quote"><br></div><div class="gmail_quote"><span class=""><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div><div><font size="4" style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.8px"><div style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline"></div></font>><div style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline"> </div>Maybe I missed something. 'Achieve' consciousness? What does that even mean?</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div></span><div><div style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline"><font size="4">It means making something that is conscious from something that is not.</font> </div> </div><span class=""><div> <br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline">> </div>In an AI, OK, got it. In a person it makes utterly no sense.</blockquote><div><br></div></span><div><font size="4"><div style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline"></div>We made the AI and Evolution made us, I don't see the problem. And Evolution<div style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline"> </div>found it much easier to come up with feeling than the ability to<div style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline"> </div>reason, it's certainly came up with it first. The most ancient part of the brain, the spinal cord, the medulla and the pons is similar to the brain of a fish or amphibian and<div style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline"> </div>and is about 400 million years old, it deals in aggressive behavior, territoriality and social hierarchies.<div style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline"> </div>The Limbic System is about 150 million years old<div style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline"> </div>it<div style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline"> </div> is the source of awe and exhilaration<div style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline"> </div>and<div style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline"> </div>is the active sight of many psychotropic drugs<div style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline"></div>. The amygdala, a part of the Limbic system has much to do with fear<div style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline"> </div>and after some animals developed a Limbic system they started to take<div style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline"> </div>care of their young, so it probably has something to do with love too. </font></div><font size="4"><br>It is our grossly enlarged neocortex that makes the human brain so unusual and so recent, it only started to get ridiculously large about 3 million years ago. It deals in deliberation, spatial perception, speaking, reading, writing and mathematics, the one new emotion we got was worry, probably because the neocortex is also the place where we plan for the future. </font> <br><br><font size="4">If nature came up with feeling first and high level intelligence much later, I don't see why the opposite would be true for our computers. It's probably a hell of a lot easier to make something that feels but doesn't think than something that thinks but doesn't feel. </font> <br><div><br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div><div><font size="4" style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.8px"><div style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline"></div></font>><div style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline"> </div>Intelligence, depending on the definition</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div><font size="4"><div style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline">Definitions are of trivial importance, examples are not. </div> </font></div><span class=""><div> <br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div><div><div style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline">> </div>Learning millions of facts does not make us smarter than encyclopedias.<font size="4" style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.8px"> </font></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div></span><div><div style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline"><font size="4">Books don't behave intelligently because books can't compute. </font></div></div><div><br></div></div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><div class="gmail_quote"><span class=""><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline">> </div>If we could agree on some definition of consciousness, then we might be able to program it, but not until then. </blockquote><div><br></div></span><div><font size="4"><div style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline">I have a definition of consciousness and there will never be a better one, </div><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">consciousness<div style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline"> is the way John K Clark feels.</div></span></font></div><span class=""><div><br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline">> </div>So - what characteristics define consciousness in an AI?</blockquote><div><br></div></span><div><font size="4"><div style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline">The same characteristics you use to infer consciousness to your fellow human beings. </div> </font></div><span class=""><div> <br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div><div><font size="4" style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.8px"><div style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline"></div></font>> What characteristics do we have to find to determine whether a person is conscious?</div></div></div></blockquote><div> </div></span><div><font size="4"><div style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline">Intelligent behavior of course, that's why I think somebody taking a calculus exam is probably conscious but somebody sleeping or under </div></font><font face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif" size="4">anesthesia<div style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline"> or</div></font><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:large"> dead probably is not. </span></div><div><font size="4"><div style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline"><br></div></font></div><div><div style="font-size:large;font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline"> John K Clark </div><span style="font-size:large"> </span><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div></div></div></div>
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