<html><head><meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body dir="auto"><div></div><div>Bill,</div><div>I can't tell how strict you are being here, so this may just be a matter of you having a very high standard of what constitutes tool use/creating tools/learning to use tools, but there are plenty of scholarly articles, web pages indexed by google, and videos demonstrating various degrees of tool use by non-human animals. Just search for "ethology tool use" to see what I mean. Or "birds using tools" on YouTube. Some of these are quite impressive IMHO. </div><div>-Henry </div><div><br>On Aug 10, 2017, at 8:56 PM, William Flynn Wallace <<a href="mailto:foozler83@gmail.com">foozler83@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote type="cite"><div><div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0)">spike wrote <span style="font-size:19.2px;font-family:arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(34,34,34)"> </span><span style="font-size:19.2px;font-family:arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(34,34,34)">we may find that most beasts use tools in some way, and</span></div><span style="font-size:19.2px">many of them make tools.</span><div class="gmail-yj6qo gmail-ajU" style="font-size:19.2px"><div id="gmail-:k4" class="gmail-ajR" tabindex="0"><img class="gmail-ajT" src="https://ssl.gstatic.com/ui/v1/icons/mail/images/cleardot.gif" style="opacity: 0.3;"></div><div id="gmail-:k4" class="gmail-ajR" tabindex="0"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0)">There is a problem here with interpretation. If a person, aka human, used a tool, he must have learned it somehow, watching, experimenting - aka learning either from others or just from messing around. I think that anyone who has worked on cars has invented a tool, perhaps using two different tools to do a job.</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0)">The examples you gave of tool use were all instincts - aka not learned. The thing about people is their adaptability. We can create tools or use tools for something other than their intended purpose. Animals - aka other animals - tend to do the same thing over and over, and the behavior does not vary much at all from one individual to another.</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0)">For you to show that animals do use tools in much the same way we do, you'll have to show changes in their instinctive behaviors and I don't think you can do that. A spider won't build a different web if the one she has stays empty. And the tool use will have to be relatively unique - unlike other individuals of that species.</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0)">So show me learning to use tools and I'll be happy with that.</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0)">bill w</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0)"></div><br></div></div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, Aug 10, 2017 at 4:43 PM, spike <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:spike66@att.net" target="_blank">spike66@att.net</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><span class=""><br>
<br>
-----Original Message-----<br>
From: extropy-chat [mailto:<a href="mailto:extropy-chat-bounces@lists.extropy.org">extropy-chat-bounces@<wbr>lists.extropy.org</a>] On Behalf<br>
</span><span class="">Of MB<br>
Sent: Thursday, August 10, 2017 1:19 PM<br>
To: ExI chat list <<a href="mailto:extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org">extropy-chat@lists.extropy.<wbr>org</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [ExI] evolution<br>
<br>
<br>
</span><span class="">> That would be cool to see. Had I known that, I would have looked<br>
> around for a sandy area and arranged for a small arthropod to pass by.<br>
><br>
<br>
<br>
Oh spike, where did you grow up???? That's similar to<br>
what doodlebugs do, only thay make a pit-trap for the ant<br>
to fall into, then they catch them. Surely you recall<br>
that from your childhood?<br>
<br>
<br>
Regards,<br>
MB<br>
______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
</span>Of course! We called them ant lions, but since you mention that particular<br>
beast, I have an a fun story from the 1960s. You recall elementary school<br>
back in the day perhaps if you are old enough: if the teacher was feeling<br>
lazy she (they were all she back then) would put on a film in the old time<br>
projector and kick back for half an hour.<br>
<br>
You might recall plenty of those science films were full of baloney. For<br>
instance, the one that comes to mind is an anthropology film which claimed<br>
the thing that sets humans apart from all other species was his ability to<br>
make tools. They mentioned the notion was challenged by the observation of<br>
chimps stripping a twig to make a termite-extraction tool. Afterwards in<br>
the discussion, I questioned that too. Plenty of beasts make tools. We<br>
could witness one creating a tool and using it right outside the door<br>
without having to go on a field trip.<br>
<br>
My open-minded teacher indulged me and allowed the class to witness, as I<br>
stepped out, dug an ant lion out of the ground, poured the sand away to<br>
isolate the ant lion, placed him on the sand. We watched him flick sand to<br>
create an inverted cone ant trap. There ya go: beast making a tool. Then I<br>
took an ant, put her in the trap, ant lion flipped the sand, grabbed the<br>
ant: beast using a tool.<br>
<br>
My teacher didn't even attempt to claim that act didn't count as tool<br>
making. The discussion evolved into birds gathering twigs to make a nest.<br>
A home is a tool. A spider's web is a tool. The beaver makes a dam which<br>
is a tool for backing up water, providing a barrier to trap fish. The orcas<br>
work together to create a bubble curtain to herd schools of fish. Orcas are<br>
in a whole nuther category: those guys work together to do all kindsa cool<br>
stuff.<br>
<br>
Whoever made that film displayed a remarkable lack of imagination. If you<br>
look closely enough, we may find that most beasts use tools in some way, and<br>
many of them make tools.<br>
<span class="HOEnZb"><font color="#888888"><br>
spike<br>
</font></span><div class="HOEnZb"><div class="h5"><br>
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