<div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:#000000">Yes, it's ALWAYS both genetics and environment. That should go without saying. But your claim is much more specific - obey adults. The one becomes an adult, you say, and just continue what your parents taught you. I still say that's like Watson's claim - very wishful thinking. Society is changing - read the Pinker book and see just how many and how much and I think you will tend to agree with me more.</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:#000000"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:#000000">Given all the ravings Middle East nonJews see, it is amazing that terrorists number in the dozens rather than the millions - isn't it? And so you are stereotyping badly - taking a few thousand (depending on if you count Boko Haram and such) terrorists and making claims about the rest of the billion or so followers.</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:#000000"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:#000000">Penalties for nonobservance in Islam are great. In other religions, small (that I know of - strange, small sects led by one person omitted). Conformity is the key to getting along in Islam. I saw this a few years ago and cannot find it, but - 60% or higher Iranians do NOT favor ruling a country by a religious figure. Hardly a unanimity of opinion supporting their religion. How much more would it be if that were an open society?</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:#000000"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:#000000">Genes simple? Are you crazy? Do you know (of course you do - you can do the math) how many interactions are possible among 20k genes, given that some action can result from one gene, or two, or just about any number? I'd say figuring out genetics will take a thousand years or more. And we are just learning about the role of the gut microbes, which can change our genes, and of the glial cells and their influence over the neurons, about which we are just now learning.</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:#000000"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:#000000">We agree in principle - I just think you are taking it more than a bit too far into the conformity region. I would like to see the stats on churchgoers who don't believe much of it, or are questioning the very basis of their own religion, like those who don't believe in the Original Sin - which is the <b>very basis of Christianity. </b> You have to be saved. From what? Original sin. No Original sin? No need to be saved. No need to go to a church that preaches that. </div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:#000000"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:#000000">I can't find a poll on Original Sin, but lot of what I did read shows that many people think God is good and would not send babies to Hell for just being a child of Adam. </div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:#000000"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:#000000">I just think there is a lot less conformity, thus less rigid following of parents and other authorities preachings.</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:#000000"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:#000000">bill w</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:#000000"><br></div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Mon, Feb 26, 2018 at 7:57 PM, John Clark <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:johnkclark@gmail.com" target="_blank">johnkclark@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><span class=""><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif">On Mon, Feb 26, 2018 at 10:12 AM, William Flynn Wallace </span><span dir="ltr" style="font-family:arial,sans-serif"><<a href="mailto:foozler83@gmail.com" target="_blank">foozler83@gmail.com</a>></span><span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif"> wrote:</span><br></div></span><div class="gmail_extra"><div class="gmail_quote"><span class=""><div> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0)"> <div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline">><i> </i></div><i>I am sure you can agree that there are many who go to some church who don't believe a word of it, but don't want to act like a rebel or unbeliever. </i></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div></span><div>They go to church but don't believe a word of it? Not a word? I actually don't agree, I think that's pretty rare. And those that go to mosque but don't believe a word of what the Islamic franchise is pushing are even more rare. You don't fly an airliner into a skyscraper unless you strongly believe you will get 77 virgins in the afterlife for doing so. Why did they believe that was true? Because their mommy and daddy told them it was true.And 86% of Muslims living in Egypt believe those leaving Islam should receive the death penalty, 79% in Afghanistan and 76% in Pakistan believe the same thing. Why do they think that would be a good idea? Because their mommy and daddy told them it was a good idea.<br></div><span class=""><div><br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline">> </div><i>You don't have to posit a genetic tendency to believe what authorities are saying to explain the facts. It could easily be environmental. </i></div></div></blockquote><div> </div></span><div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline"></div>It's both. Genes predispose the young to believe what the adults in their environment tell them, so if they are told idiotic things in childhood they will tend to believe idiot things in adulthood. </div><div><br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline">></div> <i>Ockham.</i></span></blockquote><div><br></div>Ockham liked simplicity and our genes are far simpler than our environment; you could put the entire human genome on a CD, and that format came out about 35 years ago.<span class=""><div> <br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline">> </div><i>There is some resistance to persuasion in all of us - contrarianism. We don't like to feel manipulated.</i></div></div></blockquote><div> </div></span><div>True, and I'm sure none of the 911 hijackers felt manipulated when they flew airliners into skyscrapers, if they had they wouldn't have done it. <br></div><span class=""><div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline"></div></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline">><i> </i></div><i>What happens when you present conflicting views to a person? </i></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div></span><div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline">That depends on how old they are, with each passing year </div><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">conflicting view<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline">s</div></span><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline"> will have less impact. And people never get religious views through logic so they can not be disabused of them through logic.</div></div><span class=""><div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline"><br></div></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><i><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline">> </div>Presenting the other side(s) often knocks the person for a loop - he has no defense or counterarguments.</i></blockquote><div><br></div></span>But he ALWAYS has a ironclad counterargument; "logic be damned, the reveled WORD OF GOD says I'm right and you're wrong and that's that". <br><span class=""><div> <br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0)"></div><div style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline">> </div>If your position is that it is genetic, then you have a hard time explaining the world-wide decline in church attendance.</div></div></blockquote><br></span>I'm not saying there is a gene for religion, I'm saying there is a gene that predisposes the young to believe what adults tell them. If adults don't push religion onto their kids then they probably won't grow up to be religious nuts. And church attendance may be in decline, at least in Europe, but I don't think mosque attendance is in decline<br> <br>John K Clark<div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div></div></div></div>
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