<div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:#000000">john clark - <span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:19.2px;font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);text-decoration-style:initial;text-decoration-color:initial;float:none;display:inline">if the devout didn't think the very young didn't have such a tendency they would not place such emphasis on having religious grade schools and even religious kindergarten.</span></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:#000000"><span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:19.2px;font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);text-decoration-style:initial;text-decoration-color:initial;float:none;display:inline">---</span></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:#000000"><span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:19.2px;font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);text-decoration-style:initial;text-decoration-color:initial;float:none;display:inline">I'd say that that was a good argument for the opposite: believing that environment had to install the values. It's indoctrination, of course, or the attempt at such, and I'll bet it doesnt' work very well. People are not sheep.</span></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:#000000"><span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:19.2px;font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);text-decoration-style:initial;text-decoration-color:initial;float:none;display:inline"><br></span></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:#000000"><span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:19.2px;font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);text-decoration-style:initial;text-decoration-color:initial;float:none;display:inline">I fail to see how all those statistics you gave about the Muslims support your case for genetics. You don't see nearly that kind of unanimity among followers of other religions. I admit Iran is a special case of a secular society in a theocracy. Keep in mind that in very homogeneous societies there is a lot of pressure to say or do the expected thing. That produces a response set in people who then don't tell you what they think; they tell you what is popular or socially accepted. This is a big problem in surveys: have women become much more open about sex, or have they just changed their survey responses as a function of greater acceptance of women's sex by society? Frustrating to the social scientist.</span></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:#000000"><span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:19.2px;font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);text-decoration-style:initial;text-decoration-color:initial;float:none;display:inline"><br></span></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:#000000"><span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:19.2px;font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);text-decoration-style:initial;text-decoration-color:initial;float:none;display:inline">You could be right. I don't even doubt that it is possible. I just say that you don't need genes here except for those involved in learning, esp. social learning - who tells who what to do is noticed by tots and up. The Kohlberg moral development level here in pre-school is "If I get rewarded it must be good. If I get punished it must be bad." That's all until several years later. It is to be noted that in Kohlberg's scheme, most adults don't get to the level of 5 or 6 and thus view all rules and laws as sort of optional. So, to contradict myself, some of us are a bit ovine.</span></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:#000000"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:#000000">Some of those statistics are fooling us into thinking that something will take place if enough people are for it. Look at us: most of us favor gun control. Congress, no. Plenty of other differences between what people say they want and what the lawmakers will do. Even in Egypt. Leaders in Egypt are terrified of Islam and keep it out as much as they can, like the Muslim Brotherhood.</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:#000000"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:#000000">bill w</div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Wed, Feb 28, 2018 at 10:42 AM, John Clark <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:johnkclark@gmail.com" target="_blank">johnkclark@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><span class=""><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif">On Tue, Feb 27, 2018 at 11:49 AM, William Flynn Wallace </span><span dir="ltr" style="font-family:arial,sans-serif"><<a href="mailto:foozler83@gmail.com" target="_blank">foozler83@gmail.com</a>></span><span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif"> wrote:</span><br></div></span><div class="gmail_extra"><div class="gmail_quote"><span class=""><br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline">> <i></i></div><i>Yes, it's ALWAYS both genetics and environment. That should go without saying. But your claim is much more specific - obey adults. </i></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div>
</span><div>Not a gene to obey adults, a gene to believe what adults say is true, or at least probably true. It's not difficult to see why there would be evolutionary pressure for such a gene to develop, or why a gene with the opposite tendency would be lethal. And if the devout didn't think the very young didn't have such a tendency they would not place such emphasis on having religious grade schools and even religious kindergarten. Yes sometimes children rebel but if such actions wasn't rare (compared with the times they didn't rebel) it wouldn't be revolutionary. <br></div><div><br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline">> </div>Society is changing</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline">A gene that predisposes a child to believe what adults tell them will slow down the rate of social change but it will not slow down the rate of technological change, in fact technology itself would not exist without it. </div></div><div> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline">> </div> read the Pinker book</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div>I've read all of Pinker's books except for his newest "Enlightenment Now", and I'll get around to that before long.<span class=""><br><div> <br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline">><i> </i></div><i>you are stereotyping badly - taking a few thousand (depending on if you count Boko Haram and such) terrorists and making claims about the rest of the billion or so followers.</i></div></div></blockquote><div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline"><br></div></div>
</span><div>Stereotyping? I provided some hard data in my last post, you didn't. I'll give you some more, according to Pew research almost all Muslims in Afghanistan (99%) want barbaric sharia law imposed, and most in Iraq (91%) and Pakistan (84%) and Egypt (74%) . Even in Ottawa, the capital of Canada, 62% of Muslims in that city think the country should be ruled by sharia law. These statistics may not be politically correct but facts are facts and there is something rotten in the heart of Islam . There is one bright spot, although 22% of Egyptians have a favorable opinion of Osama bin Laden that is better than what it was in 2007, back then it was 27%. <br></div></div><div class="gmail_quote"><span class=""><font color="#000000" face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif"><br></font><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline">><i> </i></div><i>Penalties for nonobservance in Islam are great.</i> </div></div></blockquote><div><br></div></span><div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline">True, thanks to good old sharia law. </div> </div><div><br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline">><i> </i></div><i>Genes simple?</i></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">Compared with the environment very simple indeed.</div></div><span class=""><div> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline">><i> </i></div><i>Do you know (of course you do - you can do the math) how many interactions are possible among 20k genes,</i></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div></span><div> I know it would take far FAR <b>FAR</b> more than 20,000 variables to define the environment. </div><div><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"> </span><br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"> <div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline">><i> </i></div><i> Are you crazy? </i></span></blockquote><div>
<p class="m_-1015251909419683533gmail-p1">I don't think so, but then crazy people usually don't. Perhaps that's probably a question best left to others to decide.</p>
<p class="m_-1015251909419683533gmail-p1"></p><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline"> </div>John K Clark<p></p></div><div> </div></div></div></div>
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