<div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:#000000"><span style="color:rgb(80,0,80);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:19.2px;font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);text-decoration-style:initial;text-decoration-color:initial;float:none;display:inline">By the teen years they no longer take it for granted that what adults tell them is true, but by then its too late, the damage has been done and they will believe ridiculous religious crap for the rest of their life without question. And they will teach the exact same bullshit to their children. john</span><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:#000000"><span style="color:rgb(80,0,80);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:19.2px;font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);text-decoration-style:initial;text-decoration-color:initial;float:none;display:inline"><br></span></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:#000000"><span style="color:rgb(80,0,80);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:19.2px;font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);text-decoration-style:initial;text-decoration-color:initial;float:none;display:inline">I think this is seriously mistaken - no , just flat wrong. However, I am no longer interested enough in this conversation to do the research to prove this very wrong, though if you are, and you get data supporting this extremist view, I will be happy to read it. Not exactly a proponent of free will, are you?</span></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:#000000"><span style="color:rgb(80,0,80);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:19.2px;font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);text-decoration-style:initial;text-decoration-color:initial;float:none;display:inline"><br></span></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:#000000"><span style="color:rgb(80,0,80);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:19.2px;font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);text-decoration-style:initial;text-decoration-color:initial;float:none;display:inline">bill w.</span></div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Sat, Mar 3, 2018 at 9:29 AM, William Flynn Wallace <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:foozler83@gmail.com" target="_blank">foozler83@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:#000000"><span style="color:rgb(80,0,80);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:19.2px;font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);text-decoration-style:initial;text-decoration-color:initial;float:none;display:inline">By the teen years they no longer take it for granted that what adults tell them is true, but by then its too late, the damage has been done and they will believe ridiculous religious crap for the rest of their life without question. And they will teach the exact same bullshit to their children. john</span><br></div></div><div class="HOEnZb"><div class="h5"><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Fri, Mar 2, 2018 at 1:56 PM, William Flynn Wallace <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:foozler83@gmail.com" target="_blank">foozler83@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:#000000"><br></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote"><span>On Fri, Mar 2, 2018 at 1:33 PM, John Clark <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:johnkclark@gmail.com" target="_blank">johnkclark@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><span><div style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif">On Fri, Mar 2, 2018 at 12:18 PM, William Flynn Wallace <<a href="mailto:foozler83@gmail.com" target="_blank">foozler83@gmail.com</a>> <wbr>wrote:</span><br></div><div style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif"><br></span></div></span><div class="gmail_extra"><span>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">><i> you did not react to my statement that Muslim terrorists were a very tiny part of the Muslim world,</i></blockquote>
</span><p class="m_-7797798267273273659m_-6083162913246777525m_-5638459074947154153m_-1976992954198446084gmail-p1">Then I will do so now. Most Muslims are not terrorists but most terrorists are Muslims. Yes, active terrorists make up a small percentage of the Muslim world, but the percentage that are terrorist enablers and sympathizers is not small at all, it approaches a majority in many countries. </p></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div></span><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0)">I can agree with that. bill w</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_extra"><span><span>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><i>> no matter what people say on surveys. </i></blockquote>
</span><p class="m_-7797798267273273659m_-6083162913246777525m_-5638459074947154153m_-1976992954198446084gmail-p1">So what are you saying, you already know the truth and don't want to be confused by the facts?</p></span><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0);display:inline"> john</div> <p></p></div></div></blockquote><div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0)">What? I do know what people say on surveys is often a response calculated to impress the reader that the surveyed person is conforming with his culture. That may, or may NOT, be the case with the Muslim surveys, but given the pressure and the penalties to conform, I'd be very suspect of drawing major conclusion from that kind of data. Not to toss it out - just to be suspicious of it. bill w</div><br></div><div> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_extra"><span><p class="m_-7797798267273273659m_-6083162913246777525m_-5638459074947154153m_-1976992954198446084gmail-p1">I don’t understand why so many people feel it is their duty to perform logical contortions if that’s what it takes to avoid criticizing religion. You’re free to criticize a person's politics or their knowledge or their intelligence or their personality or even their personal hygiene, but don’t dare criticize their religion, if you do then that means you're a bad person. I don’t get it. </p></span><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0);display:inline">JOhn</div><p></p></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0)">I wonder if you are talking about me. The closest person I know who has opinions like mine on religion is Christopher Hitchens, and I don't mind airing my opinions anywhere. bill w</div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_extra"><span><p class="m_-7797798267273273659m_-6083162913246777525m_-5638459074947154153m_-1976992954198446084gmail-p1"></p><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0);display:inline"></div>As I’ve said over and over, not a tendency to obey adults but a tendency to believe what they say is true, especially in things involving morality and general philosophy </span><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0);display:inline">john</div><p></p></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0)">Are you saying that a tendency to believe moral things is different from, say, what parents tell them about music or using the microwave? If you are, that could be true, as those things are more important in a way. But I also say that changes to what parents taught is rampant, starting in teen years, and continued in college dorm discussions. bill w</div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_extra"><span><p class="m_-7797798267273273659m_-6083162913246777525m_-5638459074947154153m_-1976992954198446084gmail-p1">And how can very young children learn if they don’t believe anything adults tell them?</p></span><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0);display:inline"> John</div><p></p></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0)">I never said that. Perhaps things like that are put in memory, and maybe tentatively believed, or maybe stored as the default, and taken out when supportive or contradictory opinions are expressed and examined. bill w</div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_extra"><p class="m_-7797798267273273659m_-6083162913246777525m_-5638459074947154153m_-1976992954198446084gmail-p1"></p><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0);display:inline"></div><br><p></p></div></div></blockquote><div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0)">======================= will respond to the below later bill w</div><br></div><div> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><span><div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_extra"><p class="m_-7797798267273273659m_-6083162913246777525m_-5638459074947154153m_-1976992954198446084gmail-p1"></p><span>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><i> </i><i> > What do tots and teens think when their parents disagree? </i></blockquote></span><p class="m_-7797798267273273659m_-6083162913246777525m_-5638459074947154153m_-1976992954198446084gmail-p1">Historically it was pretty rare for parents to disagree about religion, in fact historically disagreements by anybody over anything religious were illegal. </p><span>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><i>> Peers, while one is a teen, outrank everybody, despite the clear fact that one's peers often don't know any more than the person does, and is very often wrong </i></blockquote>
</span><p class="m_-7797798267273273659m_-6083162913246777525m_-5638459074947154153m_-1976992954198446084gmail-p1">The type of learning I’m talking about now isn’t about learning facts, its about learning opinions and values and a philosophy of life.</p><span>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><i>> If there is any genetic tendency to hear and obey parents, it's mostly gone by the teen years.</i></blockquote>
</span><p class="m_-7797798267273273659m_-6083162913246777525m_-5638459074947154153m_-1976992954198446084gmail-p1">By the teen years they no longer take it for granted that what adults tell them is true, but by then its too late, the damage has been done and they will believe ridiculous religious crap for the rest of their life without question. And they will teach the exact same bullshit to their children.</p><span>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><i>> What does a person say when he is asked, or asks himself, just who he is? Religions affiliation is usually noted, if not first, then, shortly thereafter. </i></blockquote>
</span><p class="m_-7797798267273273659m_-6083162913246777525m_-5638459074947154153m_-1976992954198446084gmail-p1">I know, people are put (or they put themselves) into categories depending on religious franchise, and that melancholy fact has cause more misery in the world than anything else except for death itself.</p>
<p class="m_-7797798267273273659m_-6083162913246777525m_-5638459074947154153m_-1976992954198446084gmail-p1"></p><div style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;display:inline"> </div>John K Clark<p></p></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br></div></div>
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