<div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:comic sans ms,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:#000000"><div class="gmail_default" style="background-color:rgb(255,255,255);text-decoration-style:initial;text-decoration-color:initial;display:inline"></div><span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:large;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);text-decoration-style:initial;text-decoration-color:initial;float:none;display:inline"><span> </span>So Evolution gave us some rules of thumb that are fast and work pretty well most of the time, but like all rules of thumb they sometimes can go badly wrong. John (thanks also to spike)</span><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:comic sans ms,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:#000000"><span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:large;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);text-decoration-style:initial;text-decoration-color:initial;float:none;display:inline"><br></span></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:comic sans ms,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:#000000"><span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:large;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);text-decoration-style:initial;text-decoration-color:initial;float:none;display:inline">John! You did not have to be a physicist. You coulda been a psychologist! I cast out my bait and hook two big thinkers. </span></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:comic sans ms,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:#000000"><span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:large;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);text-decoration-style:initial;text-decoration-color:initial;float:none;display:inline"><br></span></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:comic sans ms,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:#000000"><span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:large;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);text-decoration-style:initial;text-decoration-color:initial;float:none;display:inline">My problem with these algorithms - they are patches. Maybe they were the best that dna could come up with at the time, and as John says, they work sometimes, mainly to maintain the status quo. That's where my contrarian mind balks.</span></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:comic sans ms,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:#000000"><span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:large;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);text-decoration-style:initial;text-decoration-color:initial;float:none;display:inline"><br></span></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:comic sans ms,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:#000000"><span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:large;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);text-decoration-style:initial;text-decoration-color:initial;float:none;display:inline">The algorithms/patches are not, by far, nuanced thinking. Thus I think that they are unworthy of advanced minds who will lead the culture, whether it be scientific or something else ( I see no evidence that advanced minds are leading popular culture). They do distort reality and need improvement, or in many cases, disposal.</span></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:comic sans ms,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:#000000"><span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:large;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);text-decoration-style:initial;text-decoration-color:initial;float:none;display:inline"><br></span></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:comic sans ms,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:#000000"><span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:large;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);text-decoration-style:initial;text-decoration-color:initial;float:none;display:inline">But I do recognize that perhaps it could be argued that they were needed in some form. Tribal level, I think.</span></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:comic sans ms,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:#000000"><span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:large;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);text-decoration-style:initial;text-decoration-color:initial;float:none;display:inline"><br></span></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:comic sans ms,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:#000000"><span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:large;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);text-decoration-style:initial;text-decoration-color:initial;float:none;display:inline">Evolution did a great job but it has a long way to go. I hope it gets the chance. 'Survival of the fittest' does not seem to describe the current state of world affairs in the evolutionary sense.</span></div><div class="gmail_extra"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:"comic sans ms",sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0)">Are we, in fact, not losing the unfit?</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:"comic sans ms",sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:"comic sans ms",sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0)">bill w</div><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Sat, Jul 14, 2018 at 11:48 AM, Spike Jones <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:spike@rainier66.com" target="_blank">spike@rainier66.com</a>></span> wrote:</div><div class="gmail_quote"><br></div><div class="gmail_quote"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:"comic sans ms",sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><div class="gmail_default" style="background-color:rgb(255,255,255);text-decoration-style:initial;text-decoration-color:initial;display:inline"></div><span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);text-decoration-style:initial;text-decoration-color:initial;float:none;display:inline"><span> </span>If common cog biases somehow benefit the tribe, or the species, or promotes copulation (even at the expense of the individual) it can explain why they persist in humans.</span></div><br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div lang="EN-US" link="blue" vlink="purple"><div class="m_-2357677612499032274m_-8664003250075466646WordSection1"><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> </p><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:"comic sans ms",sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0);display:inline">I guess that to refine my question might help: Just how do the biases help? It is very easy to see how such things as lying (not a cognitive bias) can be very beneficial. It is much harder, impossible to me in fact, to see how irrational thinking done by an individual can help his or her survival. </div><p></p></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:"comic sans ms",sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0)">By the group, yes. Religion, for one, is irrational - some prefer nonrational - but does help group cohesion in certain ways. </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div lang="EN-US" link="blue" vlink="purple"><div class="m_-2357677612499032274m_-8664003250075466646WordSection1"><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> extropy-chat <<a href="mailto:extropy-chat-bounces@lists.extropy.org" target="_blank">extropy-chat-bounces@lists.ex<wbr>tropy.org</a>> <b>On Behalf Of </b>William Flynn Wallace<br><b>Sent:</b> Saturday, July 14, 2018 8:10 AM<br><b>To:</b> ExI chat list <<a href="mailto:extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org" target="_blank">extropy-chat@lists.extropy.or<wbr>g</a>><br><b>Subject:</b> [ExI] evolution and crazy thinking<u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p><div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Comic Sans MS"">>…<span style="color:black">Pondering for the nth time about why humans got so far with all the crazy, illogical cognitive gadgets that inhabit our forebrains. I have repeatedly mentioned to this group the cognitive errors or biases listed in Wikipedia.<u></u><u></u></span></span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Comic Sans MS";color:black"><u></u> <u></u></span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Comic Sans MS"">…<span style="color:black"><u></u><u></u></span></span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Comic Sans MS";color:black"><u></u> <u></u></span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Comic Sans MS";color:black"><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cognitive_biases" target="_blank">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/<wbr>List_of_cognitive_biases</a></span><u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Comic Sans MS";color:black"><u></u> <u></u></span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Comic Sans MS"">…><span style="color:black">bill w<u></u><u></u></span></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal">Billw, cog biases can be explained using evolutionary psychology, but one needs to call upon the controversial notion of group selection. Strong arguments have been promoted that evolution only works on the individual level. I would argue that to explain easily-verifiable observations, such as cognitive biases, we must acknowledge that evolutionary selection does work at the group level, not just families, but particularly there.<u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal">Clarification: group selection works in those species which do work as groups. Alligators and flies and such: not. Lions, bees, orcas, humans, yes. Humans compete against other species, against other tribes, against each other and compete at the gene level. </p><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:"comic sans ms",sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0);display:inline"></div> If common cog biases somehow benefit the tribe, or the species, or promotes copulation (even at the expense of the individual) it can explain why they persist in humans.<span class="m_-2357677612499032274HOEnZb"><font color="#888888"><u></u><u></u></font></span><p></p><span class="m_-2357677612499032274HOEnZb"><font color="#888888"><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal">spike<u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p></font></span></div></div></div></div><br>______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
extropy-chat mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org" target="_blank">extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</a><br>
<a href="http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://lists.extropy.org/mailm<wbr>an/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div><br></div></div>