<div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:comic sans ms,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:#000000">I am highly critical of people who don't just say something - they make pronouncements, on topics they can't possibly understand without a doctorate or just tons of study.</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:comic sans ms,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:#000000"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:comic sans ms,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:#000000">So I would not my my two, or possibly, one cent opinion in on consciousness, global warming and many others. Chat group members have kindly advised me that some of my opinions are just not right - don't square with evidence - so I have become a bit shy about my opinions and certainly don't make pronouncements about anything outside my maid area - psychology - and many things in psychology I have not studied, or am not up on, and so on.</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:comic sans ms,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:#000000"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:comic sans ms,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:#000000">But outside the two you mention, I certainly would like to offer my opinion on topics you will have on your website. Keep me posted.</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:comic sans ms,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:#000000"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:comic sans ms,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:#000000">bill w</div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr">On Sun, Dec 23, 2018 at 9:10 AM Brent Allsop <<a href="mailto:brent.allsop@gmail.com">brent.allsop@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><br><div>Hi Bill,</div><div><br></div><div>I'm glad that helps, at least a bit. Thanks so much for your interest, and for asking questions, rather than just dismissing. Since we want to get the largest possible sample sets, anything you, or anyone else could do to indicate your currenting thinking about things like Consciousness would certainly be helpful. For example, what are your thoughts about the emerging leading consensus "Representational Qualia Theory" solution to the so called "hard problem" of consciousness or "explanatory gap"?</div><div><br></div><div><a href="https://canonizer.com/topic/88-Representational-Qualia/6" target="_blank">https://canonizer.com/topic/88-Representational-Qualia/6</a></div><div><br></div><div>Do you agree with the experts and think it works to bridge the explanatory gap and resolve the so called hard problem, allowing us to "eff the ineffable"? If so, you could easily join that camp by selecting the "Join or directly support" button. Do you think any of the other competing camps are better? You could do the same for that. Or if you have another theoretical possibility that hasn't been canonized in a camp yet, that would help to.</div><div><br></div><div>And you, or anyone could do the same on any of the other topics you have any beliefs about. In the future we will have canonizer algorithms that give the people that were in the right camps, before anyone else, much higher weight. So the more people that are right, sooner, the higher your trusted reputation will be in the future.</div><div><br></div><div>Thanks!</div><div><br></div><div>Brent</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr">On Sat, Dec 22, 2018 at 4:32 PM William Flynn Wallace <<a href="mailto:foozler83@gmail.com" target="_blank">foozler83@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:"comic sans ms",sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0)">This is much clearer - I think. You are setting up a forum for people to post their ideas and data, and are not generating any data or vetting any data. You are letting users do that. It does sound like a very good idea and I'd probably get involved, which is not the same thing as saying that it has any market value. </div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:"comic sans ms",sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:"comic sans ms",sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0)">I am not in a position to contribute to you or anybody - sorry.</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:"comic sans ms",sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:"comic sans ms",sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0)">I would be glad to offer any suggestions and receive any emails that you send out. I appreciate the time you have spent answering me.</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:"comic sans ms",sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:"comic sans ms",sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0)">bill w</div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr">On Sat, Dec 22, 2018 at 2:32 PM Brent Allsop <<a href="mailto:brent.allsop@gmail.com" target="_blank">brent.allsop@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><br><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">Hi Bill,</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">Thanks for the continued feedback
and questions. That really helps! I’m realizing we are completely failing at
communicating about the Canonizer use model.
In traditional systems, you do, indeed, need vetting. But Canonizer is completely different.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">Canonizer’s use model us more like Wikipedia,
where the crowd does the vetting. Wikipedia
works great if everyone agrees, but if someone disagrees, currently, you end up
with polarizing edit wars. With Canonizer,
when disagreement shows up in Wikipedia, instead of an edit war, you just say:
OK, we’ve discovered disagreement, so let’s move the disagreeable part over to
canonizer – where both competing camps can be represented in multiple camps, concisely
and quantitatively – everyone getting what they want in a win win way.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">Canonizer.com is for theoretical
fields where there is not yet a scientific census. Consciousness is a good example field. Currently, in this field, everyone writes a
book or article. First, they classify
the field into the way they perceive the various competing camps, then they point
out the flaws they think they see in these camps. However, they often get this wrong, their
ideological religions polarize things, and the criticisms usually are just
talking past each other.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">They present their own theory, in their
own language (different than everyone else’s language) and from their own
unique religious (including atheism) point of view. Since every expert has their own book, in their
own language, from their own point of view – it gives the perception that
nobody agrees on anything. Because
everyone is using different ambiguous language, nobody can communicate. Nobody talks about what people agree on. And everyone ends up focusing on minor disagreements
– completely missing any consensus that may exist.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">With canonizer, the first person
starts the competition by creating their own camp on the topic. Then when a competing camp comes along, you
build as much consensus as possible (canonizing the best terminology and so on through
continued negotiation) and build a supper camp on what people can agree on
(usually the most important doctrines where most people do agree, like “approachable
via science”). Everyone is highly
motivated to find some terminology to agree on, because forking the camp
reduces the consensus and influence of your camp. More and more competing camps can show up, pointing
out different yet to be falsified theories.
Obviously, the more diversity the better, as you want to capture and test
for all theoretical possibilities.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">The focus is always on
falsifiability. Everyone is encouraged
to come up with and describe experiments that could validate their camp (or
falsify it). We ask everyone: “What
would falsify your theory, and force you into a competing theory? With this theoretical information, the
experimentalists can then perform the experiments being described that people
agree would falsify their camp.</span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><br></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">Good arguments
also work. You can measure the quality
of a new argument, by how many people it converts - these can rise to the top
and be focused on. Ultimately, the
experiments are done till there is one remaining camp that can’t be
falsified. We’ve already seen one camp on at Canonizer.com be falsified, by data coming from the large hadron collider. Being able to track things like this makes it
better than a very dramatic sporting competition, with definite leaders and losers
in the competition as more camps are falsified.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal"><font face="Times New Roman, serif"><span style="font-size:12pt">Unlike a traditional survey, At <a href="http://canonizer.com" target="_blank">canonizer.com</a>
getting everyone into the same camp (or at least as few camps as possible – what
communicating concisely and quantitatively means and how you measure progress)
is the ultimate goal. Once you get everyone
into the same single camp, by experimentally falsifying all the others, you
know, rigorously and definitively, you have finally achieved a “scientific
consensus”. Then, you can throw it back
to Wikipedia, since everyone now agrees.
Then you move onto the next yet to be resolved scientific controversy,
where you start the competition over – continuing the amplification of the
wisdom of the crowd process, significantly accelerating the scientific
process, and knowing, </span><span style="font-size:16px">concisely</span><span style="font-size:12pt"> and </span><span style="font-size:16px">quantitatively</span><span style="font-size:12pt">, what everyone wants.</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">Does that help?</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"> </span></p></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr">On Fri, Dec 21, 2018 at 3:47 PM William Flynn Wallace <<a href="mailto:foozler83@gmail.com" target="_blank">foozler83@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:"comic sans ms",sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;font-size:16px">Next, we want to use it for things like global warming. I can’t wait to see what kind of consensus people can really find on supposedly important topics like that.</span><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:"comic sans ms",sans-serif"><span style="font-size:16px">Now my question is: who are the people? National surveys? Surveys of the intelligentsia? Vetting other surveys done by, say, National Science Foundation or some other like Roper? If you are going to actually perform surveys, then you need psychometricians/social psychologists so avoid asking question in a biased way, or in such a way as to get biased answers, and to survey people in a statistically appropriate way.</span></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:"comic sans ms",sans-serif"><span style="font-size:16px"><br></span></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:"comic sans ms",sans-serif"><span style="font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif"> We want to find, build consensus around, measure it rigorously, what people agree on with room for any different points of view. </span><span style="font-size:16px"><br></span></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:"comic sans ms",sans-serif"><span style="font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif"><br></span></div><div class="gmail_default"><font face="comic sans ms, sans-serif">On the topic of consciousness citing people like Dennett, you are likely to find high reliability - same answers next year. On topics like global warming, you are likely to find variations, sometimes wide, in what people think today and last year and next year.</font></div><div class="gmail_default"><font face="comic sans ms, sans-serif"><br></font></div><div class="gmail_default"><font face="comic sans ms, sans-serif">I guess some of my concerns are about: are you going to vet other data for rigor, or are you going to produce raw data and who is going to vet yours?</font></div><div class="gmail_default"><font face="comic sans ms, sans-serif"><br></font></div><div class="gmail_default"><font face="comic sans ms, sans-serif">bill w</font></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:"comic sans ms",sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;font-size:16px"><br></span></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr">On Fri, Dec 21, 2018 at 2:22 PM Brent Allsop <<a href="mailto:brent.allsop@gmail.com" target="_blank">brent.allsop@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><br><div>William,</div><div><br></div><div>You seem to be thinking of this as a traditional survey. It is not! When David Chalmers herd about our survey, he had the same concerns you did. The egghead stole my idea, but thought he could do it better, so he did it the traditional way:</div><div><br></div><div><a href="https://philpapers.org/surveys/" target="_blank">https://philpapers.org/surveys/</a><br></div><div><br></div><div>That was a disaster, and it just falsely reinforced the belief everyone had that there was no consensus, whatsoever in this field.</div><div><br></div><div>Traditional surveys are about what people disagree on. We want to find, build consensus arround, measure it rigorously, what people agree on with room for any different points of view. A very different task.</div><div><br></div><div>Brent</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr">On Fri, Dec 21, 2018 at 12:31 PM William Flynn Wallace <<a href="mailto:foozler83@gmail.com" target="_blank">foozler83@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:"comic sans ms",sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0)">to brent alsop\</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:"comic sans ms",sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:"comic sans ms",sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0)">I went to the website and still don't quite know what you are up to. If it is any kind of surveying, questionnaires, etc., I want to know who you have and what are their qualifications. Designing these things takes experts. I am a social psychologist and know very well that you can sway opinions wildly and inaccurately by the designs - the wording of the questions, etc.. </div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:"comic sans ms",sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0)">bill w</div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr">On Fri, Dec 21, 2018 at 12:34 PM <<a href="mailto:spike@rainier66.com" target="_blank">spike@rainier66.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div lang="EN-US"><div class="gmail-m_7482113684221049832gmail-m_-8288452706194297708gmail-m_-4926007749658465027gmail-m_5928408959467692991gmail-m_4070694123967016934gmail-m_7813709879122107597gmail-m_5637650927041094569WordSection1"><p class="MsoNormal">Cool!<u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal">Brent where the heck have you been man? Seems like a long time since we heard from ya.<u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal">spike<u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> extropy-chat <<a href="mailto:extropy-chat-bounces@lists.extropy.org" target="_blank">extropy-chat-bounces@lists.extropy.org</a>> <b>On Behalf Of </b>Brent Allsop<br><b>Sent:</b> Friday, December 21, 2018 8:56 AM<br><b>To:</b> ExI chat list <<a href="mailto:extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org" target="_blank">extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</a>><br><b>Cc:</b> Jim Bennett <<a href="mailto:jim@bennettgrouputah.com" target="_blank">jim@bennettgrouputah.com</a>><br><b>Subject:</b> [ExI] Canonizer 2.0<u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p><div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p><div><p class="MsoNormal">Hi fellow extropians,<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">For those who haven't heard, now that we have a little Ether money, we've launched Canonizer 2.0.<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">My Partner Jim Bennett just put together this video:<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><a href="https://vimeo.com/307590745" target="_blank">https://vimeo.com/307590745</a><u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">If anyone is interested in "investing" (legally, we need to call it donating, at least for now - till we do our canonizer security token offering.) to help move things forward, let me know.<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">Brent Allsop<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p></div></div></div></div></div>_______________________________________________<br>
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