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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=EN-US link=blue vlink=purple><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><b>From:</b> extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces@lists.extropy.org> <b>On Behalf Of </b>John Clark<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [ExI] I see pitchforks.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>On Mon, Jul 8, 2019 at 9:38 AM <<a href="mailto:spike@rainier66.com">spike@rainier66.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt'>>…I have little difficulty in figuring out that I am not a billionaire, if its hard for you to determine if you are that rich or not then I envy you…<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt'>Sure. But we are not talking about either of us. Yet. Once that number is set to a billion dollars in assets, we recall that currency value is arbitrary. They set the number, then the government has the option of printing money based on nothing. Its value goes down by an order of magnitude every two years. After a decade of that… are you now a billioneh?<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in'><p class=MsoNormal><span class=gmaildefault><i><span style='font-size:14.0pt'>> </span></i></span><i><span style='font-size:14.0pt'>Couldn’t those who are in the billion dollar range just claim to be an average taxpayer?</span></i><span style='font-size:14.0pt'><o:p></o:p></span></p></blockquote><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt'>Certainly you could claim that you have few assets just as you could claim your income is less than $10,000 a year, but if you have a private jet and a 200 foot yacht the IRS might start getting suspicious…<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt'>No worries, sell the jet to a foreign company, lease it back. Now you don’t own that jet. Or the yacht. The money is in gold or BitCoin, government has no way to track it. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in'><div><div><div><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span class=gmaildefault><span style='font-size:14.0pt'>>>… </span></span><i><span style='font-size:14.0pt'>How would they get to be identified as not average taxpayers? </span></i><span style='font-size:14.0pt'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt'>>…Everything of value has a document associated with it declaring ownership and somebody's name is on that document…<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt'>No worries, yet another industry is spawned: foreign investment companies that own all the luxury stuff American billionehs sell them, then lease it back to the people who sold it.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in'><div><div><div><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span class=gmaildefault><span style='font-size:14.0pt'>>><i> </i></span></span><i><span style='font-size:14.0pt'>those average taxpayers who think they might be approaching non-average status would dump their wealth into gold, BitCoin, things which cannot be declared </span></i><span style='font-size:14.0pt'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt'>>…If you ever plan to use the gold or Bitcoins to actually buy something then you'd better declare them or the IRS will put you in jail…<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt'>I see, so spending one’s own money is illegal now? The IRS has the right to know what I own now?<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt'>John do you see that you have been advocating for dictatorship? Do you really want the government having arbitrary power to appraise your property at any value they wish, then tax you on it? Neither do I.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt'>There is a good reason why the 16<sup>th</sup> amendment is written the way it is, specifying income, and nothing else. Fortunately I see little risk that ¾ of the US states would sign on because of mobs with pitchforks, when the militias and the army have rifles.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt'>>…And then watch out for those pitchforks because even today billionaires who cheat on their taxes …<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt'>Ja and this is why we don’t want to change the tax law. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt'>As it turns out, it would be easy to defeat. All you need to do is explain to the voters that the pitchfork people will come for the ultra rich first. Once they are in prison and the government seizes their assets, what a surprise! There is a new top 1%. When they are gone, there is a new 1%! When does your number come up, John? Is it sooner? Or is it later?<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt'>Bad idea.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div></div><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in'><div><div><div><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span class=gmaildefault><span style='font-size:14.0pt'>> </span></span><span style='font-size:14.0pt'>or whose value is arbitrary.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt'>>…The assessed value of property is somewhat arbitrary but we do it anyway, that's how property taxes work; just expand the idea to cover stocks, bonds, yachts, private jets, gold, Bitcoins etc.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt'>Property tax doesn’t apply at the federal level. If we make it to where it does… then other things of value will follow. Then… will your number come up sooner? Or later?<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt'>>…It's well known that the Winklevoss twins <span class=gmaildefault>h</span>ave about a billion dollars worth of bitcoins…<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt'>We can theorize that anyone has BitCoin. But we really don’t know. That’s why BitCoin is the way it is.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt'>>…and I haven't heard of their children being stolen<span class=gmaildefault>; </span>I don't <span class=gmaildefault>quite </span>understand why wealth in that form is more dangerous than wealth in some other form, <span class=gmaildefault>but</span> if it is then it would be wise not to hold bitcoins<span class=gmaildefault>…</span>.<span class=gmaildefault>John K Clark<o:p></o:p></span></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt'>Holding wealth in that form damn sure is more dangerous. It’s what stopped me from investing in it. I have a family. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt'>This is something we haven’t really dealt with: BitCoin does enable certain types of crime. It would enable kidnapping, we are already seeing ransomware attacks, we can easily imagine politicians using it to pay off girlfriends and such. I don’t have the answers to that.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt'>That being said, I question the premise entirely. I don’t see that wealth disparity creates the kind of animosity you describe at all. The wealth disparity I have seen is typically in places like Palo Alto, where everyone there is a multimillioneh, but they have serious heartburn with the local billioneh who wants to buy up several houses and create a fortress.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt'>spike<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in'><div><div><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><o:p> </o:p></p></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div></div></div></body></html>