<div dir="ltr"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">Hi Stuart,</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(0,112,192);background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial">“*math* happens here</span>”</p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">And</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(0,112,192);background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial">“Math-based technology is taking the world
by storm as we speak."</span><br></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">Agreed, but how do you get this
physical property on your screen:</span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><br></span></p><div><img src="cid:ii_jyc0mzlc0" alt="image.png" width="150" height="150"><br></div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span id="gmail-_x0000_t75">
</span><span id="gmail-Picture_x0020_14" type="#_x0000_t75" alt="https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/25/Red.svg/150px-Red.svg.png" style="width:112.5pt;height:112.5pt">
</span><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">From even the abstract word “red”,
let alone any mathematics, without someone pointing and saying: “THAT is red”?</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">And I don’t understand why you continue
to focus on light, which only ambiguously references any particular physical
qualities we can be directly aware of. Nobody
can know if you are talking about your redness, or an invert’s redness which is
the same as your greenness?</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;color:rgb(0,112,192)">“</span><span style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(0,112,192);background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial">Meaning
that you are free to use all available data to guess what red </span><span style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(0,112,192)"><br>
<span style="background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial">looks like to me, but you will never truly know for sure.”</span></span><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">And</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;color:rgb(0,112,192)">“</span><span style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(0,112,192);background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial">I suppose
that my answer is actually qualia are not approachable by currently available
techniques.</span><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;color:rgb(0,112,192)">”</span><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">I think you are just making all this
too hard by failing to distinguish between physical reality and knowledge of reality. Any physical color you want
can represent 1, and any physical color, as long as it is different, can
represent the number 2. And you can’t
get 1s or 0s from any physical property or quality, unless you have a working dictionary
set of abstracting hardware, which can get the intended 1s and 0s, from
whatever physics happens to be representing them.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">Brent</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"> </span></p></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Fri, Jul 19, 2019 at 1:09 PM Stuart LaForge <<a href="mailto:avant@sollegro.com">avant@sollegro.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><br>
Quoting Brent Allsop:<br>
<br>
>><br>
>>> But what do you mean by<br>
>>> this?<br>
>>><br>
>>> ?red + your brain = redness. Glutamate exists<br>
>>> with or without brains, but redness does not.?<br>
>>> I?m assuming that both of these are *different* in your model in the non<br>
>>> inverted and inverted set: ?Brain -> Redness??<br>
>><br>
>> Yes, that particular expression would be different for somebody with<br>
>> inverted qualia such that red + their brain = greenness.<br>
>><br>
>>><br>
>>> You?ve indicated that the downstream, ?redness? does not exist without<br>
>> the<br>
>>> upstream ?brain??<br>
>><br>
>> Yes.<br>
>><br>
><br>
> Then you are talking about "magic", or ar saying " a miracle happens here.<br>
> As I am talking about being causally (in any way physically detectable)<br>
> from whatever it is that is this redness you experience.<br>
<br>
No, I am saying *math* happens here. By the time redness becomes a <br>
thing you are able to perceive, it has already entered the stage of <br>
becoming abstract data, literally the bits of (0 = no, 1 = yes) of <br>
individual neurons in your visual cortex neural pathways firing in <br>
response to the red light. Different neural pathways would be <br>
activated by green light.<br>
<br>
Moreover, since no two peoples brains are wired identically, the <br>
neural pathways that are activated in your brain in response to red <br>
light are presumably going to be different than those in mine.<br>
<br>
The only miracle here is that sufficiently complex math can learn <br>
about itself and the world around it. Is that magic? It could be <br>
construed as such in the sense that all sufficiently advanced science <br>
and technology is, for all intents and purposes, magic to the <br>
uninitiated.<br>
<br>
But magic or not, this math-based technology is taking the world by <br>
storm even as we speak.<br>
<br>
>>> If there is one pixel on the surface of the strawberry that is switching<br>
>>> between red and green, what is the physical change in the physics of the<br>
>>> brain in your model?<br>
>><br>
>> It should not change that much. In fact you might not even notice it<br>
>> unless you were really up close and looking for it. For example if you<br>
>> look closely at the flesh tones of human portraiture painted by<br>
>> classically trained artists, you can see small regions of reds,<br>
>> greens, blues, and other seemingly unrelated colors making up what<br>
>> appears to be a single homogeneous skin tone under various conditions<br>
>> of simulated light and shadow.<br>
><br>
> You are avoiding the questions. I'm talking about a small patch on the<br>
> strawberry just large enough for you to clearly see, and pay attention to,<br>
> that is changing from red to green. What physics is changing?<br>
<br>
Some few neurons in your visual cortex are firing differently than <br>
they would be if the green spot was not there. Neuron B is firing in <br>
lieu of neuron A. The physics, apart from the difference in light <br>
wavelengths, is pretty much the same except in so far as "that neuron <br>
over there" is firing instead of "this neuron here". So I guess the <br>
answer the spatial coordinate of some of the many firing neurons are <br>
different if the green spot is on the strawberry. Does that help?<br>
><br>
>><br>
>>> And is the difference between ?Redness? and ?<br>
>>> Greenness? physically or objectively detectable, without cheating by<br>
>>> observing anything upstream from your "Redness" and "Greenness"?<br>
>><br>
>> No, I don't think so. Your question is a little like asking if it is<br>
>> possible to crack a code without having any access to clear text or<br>
>> the cypher key. And the answer is: no, not in the life time of the<br>
>> universe for all but the most simple of cyphers.<br>
>><br>
><br>
> So you are saying qualia are not approachable, nor observable via science,<br>
> then?<br>
<br>
If the human brain is Turing complete, then as a consequence of Rice's <br>
Theorem and the Halting Problem, consciousness and its attendant <br>
qualia are inaccessible by any means short of statistical inference. <br>
Meaning that you are free to use all available data to guess what red <br>
looks like to me, but you will never truly know for sure.<br>
<br>
Then again, as far as I know, quantum computers might change that so I <br>
suppose that my answer is actually qualia are not approachable by <br>
currently available techniques.<br>
<br>
Stuart LaForge<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
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</blockquote></div>