<div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><br></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Fri, Sep 20, 2019 at 12:28 AM Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat <<a href="mailto:extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org">extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><br>
Quoting Rafal Smigrodzki:<br>
<br>
> On Thu, Sep 19, 2019 at 2:02 AM Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat <<br>
> <a href="mailto:extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org" target="_blank">extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</a>> wrote:<br>
><br>
>> The telescope is only a casualty if the money is spent somewhere else.<br>
>> If astronomers are patient, they may not have to settle for the second<br>
>> best locale.<br>
>><br>
><br>
> ### So any harm is the astronomers' fault, after all.<br>
<br>
<br>
What? No. How did you get that from what I wrote above? The <br>
astronomers are getting screwed, Rafal. All I am saying that the <br>
astronomers should not give up. How is that blaming the astronomers?<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>### Sorry, my misunderstanding.</div><div> ---------------</div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
I am not a lawyer or a judge, but the language that the law is written <br>
in is not all that obscure for legalese. If you interpret the law that <br>
I quoted differently than I do, please explain.<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>### Appropriate permits have been granted for the construction of the telescope. Rioters have physically interfered with lawful actions taken in accordance with said permits, and have further interfered with routine functioning of existing telescopes. The rioters are clearly law-breakers.</div><div><br></div><div>What specific rights are implied by AIRFA depends on relevant federal and state court and government agency decisions. So far the state has not decided that AIRFA rights include the right to exclude astronomers from their property, thus AIRFA is not relevant to the case.</div><div><br></div><div>-----------------------</div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<br>
So far the protests have been tense and volatile but there hasn't been <br>
any violence yet, as far as I know, from either side.</blockquote><div><br></div><div>### Occupation of a public road and forceful prevention of normal traffic on that road is violence.</div><div><br></div><div>-------------------------</div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<br>
The hostility is palpable and it feels like a powder keg ready to go <br>
off. Sending in the military to forcibly quell the Hawaiian protests <br>
could be the spark that sets off civil war in the U.S. And that would <br>
be devastating to our civilization. If you think that these protests <br>
hinder astronomy then imagine what kind of set back to all of science <br>
an all out civil war would be.<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<br>
So ultimately, I am on the side of the U.S. Constitution and holding <br>
the republic together. Therefore I prefer to find a solution to the <br>
standoff that doesn't involve shooting American citizens (which the <br>
Hawaiians are) even if it involves delay or compromise. After all to <br>
quote Benjamin Franklin, "There never was a good war or a bad peace."<br><br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>
### Oh, I agree with you there. Using state force to disperse the rioters would be counterproductive. But there are other methods - loudspeakers chanting slogans of science and playing music of the spheres, counter-protests with cavalcades of science fans on foot, pushing their way up, all on camera, bearing paraphernalia of our faith - telescopes, laptops, weather balloons and alembics full of frothing multicolored liquids. Let's have a citizens' astronomy night at the mountain - bring your own telescope, have you and you children look at the stars and listen to stories of our tribe's travails at the hands of forces of darkness. And if the rioters raise a hand against a child with a telescope, then that hand will be struck down.</div><div><br></div><div>One percent of the TMT budget used as a public-relations tool could pay for a lot of counter-protests.</div><div><br></div><div>Rafal</div></div></div>