<html><head><meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body dir="auto"><div dir="ltr">On Dec 13, 2019, at 4:56 PM, spike@rainier66.com wrote:</div><div dir="ltr"><blockquote type="cite"><b style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;">From:</b><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;"> extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces@lists.extropy.org> </span><b style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;">On Behalf Of </b><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;">Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat</span></blockquote></div><blockquote type="cite"><div dir="ltr"><div class="WordSection1"><div><div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in"><p class="MsoNormal"><br><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">>…I’m not so sure Bill W suffers from that here, and I hope will provide some substantiation for his reckoning of trans folks being unhappy with their surgical outcomes…<o:p></o:p></p><p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p><p class="MsoNormal">Sure but none of what I was talking about to start with required surgery of any kind. Any of the genders can be any other gender at will. Surgery is expensive and painful.</p></div></div></div></blockquote><br><style><!--
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--></style><div><span style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">I was responding to Bill W’s statement from earlier today:</span><div style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><br></div><div style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">“side note on gender - the sad facts are that people who go for the full operation to another sex are rarely happy with it.“</div><div style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><br></div><div style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">He’s definitely referring to surgery there.</div><div style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><br></div><div style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">Also, in regards to gender, it doesn’t appear that people, especially trans people, select their genders at will. Hence how they often experience problems fitting in and getting desired changes. It seems you’re viewing as whimsical and making much ado about nothing. That doesn’t go along with my personal experience of trans individuals or with what studies I’ve seen. </div><div style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><br></div><div style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">Let me ask you: Do you experience either your gender or your orientation as something you can change at will? I certainly don’t. I’m not saying one can’t perhaps alter these over time with lots of effort. My guess would be for the most, even with transgender and genderqueer people, they experience their gender as something interior to them and not under their direct control.</div><div style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><br></div><div style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">(I’ll respond to the rest of your post later. Have to head out for dinner with a friend.)</div><div style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"> <br><div><div dir="ltr"><div style="line-height: normal;"><div style="line-height: normal;"><span style="line-height: 20px;">Regards,</span></div><div style="line-height: normal;"><span style="line-height: 20px;"><br></span></div><div><div style="line-height: normal;"><span style="line-height: 20px;">Dan</span></div><div style="line-height: normal;"><span style="line-height: 20px;"> Sample my Kindle books at:</span></div><div style="line-height: normal;"><p style="margin: 0px; font-stretch: normal; font-size: 12px; line-height: normal; font-family: Helvetica;"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">http://author.to/DanUst</span></p></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></body></html>