<div dir="ltr">To take the example of that apartment, no dishwasher - just the sink - and a single professional female adult moved in quite readily, not stretching disbelief in the slightest. Likewise, very few electric kitchen gadgets: we see her using a microwave oven, and that's it. She does not demonstrate advanced cooking skills; if she wants a cake, she would buy one, not make it.<div><br></div><div>I think it might help to focus on "person", not "woman". That is, the needs of a single working individual regardless of gender. This, too, is one of the changes since the times of old: many women are living on their own and focused on careers; the needs and wants of such women are not substantially different from those of men in the same position.</div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Sat, Dec 14, 2019 at 11:18 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <<a href="mailto:extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org">extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:"comic sans ms",sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0)">Adrian, I cannot tell from your answers just what tech has reduced, to use Spike's word, as a household need.</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:"comic sans ms",sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:"comic sans ms",sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0)">Certainly a hot water heater and a shower have eliminated having a big washtub and a wood fire to heat the water, but you need a lot more plumbing, and money. A dryer has reduced the need to hang clothes on racks in front of the fireplace at a greater cost (I assume we are ignoring increased costs). A dishwasher has reduced labor. Electric kitchen gadgets have reduced labor. Entertainments systems have reduced the need to get in the buggy and drive to town. Air conditioners have reduced the labor of fanning yourself by hand. Modern insulation has reduced the need to save newspaper to stuff in cracks. I'd better quit. Note that all of the modern stuff is now regarded as needs, not wants. What women would move in without all of the above - and more?</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:"comic sans ms",sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0)">bill w</div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Sat, Dec 14, 2019 at 12:44 PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat <<a href="mailto:extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org" target="_blank">extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr">Depends on the woman. I am immediately reminded of Judy's apartment from Zootopia - a fairly minimalist set of furnishings, to support a single person. (Modulo what all the "people" in Zootopia are, but the concept mirrors over to real life well enough.) Notably, the furnishings would not have differed to support a male individual.<div><br></div><div>See <a href="https://i.pinimg.com/originals/0f/50/72/0f5072667904efa1e778cdc2e0b722bf.jpg" target="_blank">https://i.pinimg.com/originals/0f/50/72/0f5072667904efa1e778cdc2e0b722bf.jpg</a> for one design, though I think the actual apartment in the movie was even more austere. On this floorplan I see a bed, a desk, a TV for entertainment, food prep & storage, clothing storage, and presumably the inner door leads to a basic washroom with at least a toilet and sink, likely a small shower too. (Though this also has running water, electricity, and a no-dirt floor.) Occasional services such as laundry are presumably provided elsewhere in or near the apartment building on a community basis (such as a laundromat).</div><div><br></div><div>Certainly the food prep and storage area, at least, is dramatically smaller than would have been needed back in the 1700s. Back then, such needs did not scale down to a single person very well, and a typical single person accommodation would have been an entire cabin. Of course, back then high-rise apartment buildings did not exist either.</div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Sat, Dec 14, 2019 at 10:14 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <<a href="mailto:extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org" target="_blank">extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:"comic sans ms",sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0)">Needs? Whose needs? Just answer this question:</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:"comic sans ms",sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:"comic sans ms",sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0)">What are the things that a house (we are ignoring the outside, the yard, right?) has to have for a women to move into it. We can omit those things that our forefathers (foremothers?) would have said, like running water and electricity and a no-dirt floor. bill w</div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Sat, Dec 14, 2019 at 11:40 AM spike jones via extropy-chat <<a href="mailto:extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org" target="_blank">extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><br>
<br>
-----Original Message-----<br>
From: <a href="mailto:spike@rainier66.com" target="_blank">spike@rainier66.com</a> <<a href="mailto:spike@rainier66.com" target="_blank">spike@rainier66.com</a>> <br>
Sent: Saturday, December 14, 2019 9:14 AM<br>
To: 'ExI chat list' <<a href="mailto:extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org" target="_blank">extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</a>><br>
Cc: 'BillK' <<a href="mailto:pharos@gmail.com" target="_blank">pharos@gmail.com</a>><br>
Subject: RE: [ExI] sex again<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
-----Original Message-----<br>
From: extropy-chat <<a href="mailto:extropy-chat-bounces@lists.extropy.org" target="_blank">extropy-chat-bounces@lists.extropy.org</a>> On Behalf Of<br>
BillK via extropy-chat<br>
Subject: Re: [ExI] sex again<br>
<br>
On Sat, 14 Dec 2019 at 15:43, spike jones via extropy-chat<br>
<<a href="mailto:extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org" target="_blank">extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</a>> wrote:<br>
><br>
> Move to the Bay Area? This place is already the Star Wars Bar when it<br>
comes to diversity. Others will already be comfortable with whatever you<br>
want to be.<br>
><br>
<br>
Surely you jest? At those prices?<br>
<<a href="https://www.newser.com/story/283270/to-afford-the-bay-area-he-lived-in-32-square-feet.html" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://www.newser.com/story/283270/to-afford-the-bay-area-he-lived-in-32-s<br>
quare-feet.html</a>><br>
<br>
<br>
BillK<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
>...BillK, I will certainly admit life in the fast lane has is compromises.<br>
It was a big step down in standard of living for my bride and me when we<br>
came to the Bay in 1989. Our living arrangements went from this:<br>
<br>
<a href="https://dianaoverbey.files.wordpress.com/2012/01/highclerecastle.jpg" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://dianaoverbey.files.wordpress.com/2012/01/highclerecastle.jpg</a><br>
<br>
to this:<br>
<br>
<a href="https://www.ocregister.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/0415-sjm-l-birdave-0413-1.jpg?w=467" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://www.ocregister.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/0415-sjm-l-birdave-041<br>
3-1.jpg?w=467</a><br>
<br>
...<br>
<br>
The second link didn't come thru before. Trying again:<br>
<br>
<a href="https://www.ocregister.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/0415-sjm-l-birdave-0413-1.jpg?w=467" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://www.ocregister.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/0415-sjm-l-birdave-041<br>
3-1.jpg?w=467</a><br>
<br>
<br>
I have been toying with an idea I wanted to bounce offa you.<br>
<br>
Things are very different now than when I started engineering. At Lockheeed<br>
often a ranking engineer would have his desk, a drawing board, a flat file<br>
(ja I know you went to google because you never saw one of those), a<br>
typewriter desk, filing cabinets, a safe (for classified documents) a<br>
cabinet for drafting tools, perhaps several other pieces of equipment modern<br>
engineers couldn't even name and had never seen.<br>
<br>
In my last assignment at that company, I inherited the office of Jerry<br>
Wozniak, who retired a multimillionaire for reasons having little to do with<br>
this job there but you likely already know by his name. We got rid of most<br>
of the outdated equipment in there and moved more guys in. There were four<br>
engineers in that office and we still had pleeeeennnty of room. We even<br>
kept Jerry's outdated filing cabinet just because it had his name on it.<br>
Hell of a nice guy he was. Never a bit crowded in that office with the four<br>
engineers desks and some of Jerry's old stuff.<br>
<br>
Reason: that list of stuff from Jerry Wozniak's era was all made obsolete by<br>
Jerry's son's invention.<br>
<br>
OK then, let's think it over and see if our housing needs were reduced by<br>
technology. I would argue that they are. <br>
<br>
Before I present my notions, I will offer a chance for you to think it over<br>
and post ideas.<br>
<br>
spike<br>
<br>
<br>
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