<div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:comic sans ms,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:#000000">Taking your statement literally: you close your eyes and remember red. I can close mine and 'see' red or any other color or shape or person etc. Do you not? bill w</div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Fri, Dec 20, 2019 at 10:08 AM John Clark via extropy-chat <<a href="mailto:extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org">extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><span style="font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif">On Thu, Dec 19, 2019 at 9:17 PM Brent Allsop via extropy-chat <<a href="mailto:extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org" target="_blank">extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</a>> wrote:</span><br></div></div><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr"><br></div><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">Hi Brent:</div></div><div><br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><i><span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">> </span>I Completely agree with everything
else you are saying including what you are saying about volition, choice…,
You’ve even converted me to the camp that says the term AGI is bad. Long live the term AI!</i></span></p></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><font size="4">So we true believers must band together and punish the AGI heretics who deface the sacred name of AI and....sorry sorry.... I get a little carried away sometimes.</font></div></div><div><br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr">
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><font size="4"><span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">>> </span>“I don't see how such a neural ponytail could falsify solipsism”</font></blockquote></div></blockquote><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal"><i><font face="Times New Roman, serif"><span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">> </span>Are you saying that the left
hemisphere of your brain does not know, absolutely, that it is </font><b style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">NOT</b><font face="Times New Roman, serif"> the
only hemisphere in existence? </font></i></p></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div><span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"></span><font size="4">Yes. Homo sapiens existed for at least a 100 thousand years before they consciously knew the brain was important much less that the brain had hemisphere<span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">s</span>; the ancient Egyptians carefully preserved every organ in the body EXCEPT for the brain which they thought was just humdrum packing material that did nothing but hinder the mummification process, so they pulled the brain out of the head through the nostrils with an iron hook and discarded the resulting mess. Alcor is somewhat more careful because we've learned over the centuries but it hasn't been easy because the brain does not come with any built in knowledge about the brain.</font></div><div><br></div><font size="4">And unless your corpus callosum<span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"> that connects your brain hemispheres has been surgically severed your left hemispheres does not currently know what it would be like to be a left hemisphere unconnected to the right </span>hemisphere<span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">. </span></font><div> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal"><a href="https://www.cbc.ca/cbcdocspov/features/the-hogan-twins-share-a-brain-and-see-out-of-each-others-eyes?fbclid=IwAR24WaZJuZFucfU41DRX3zgmuWwYhiYL2MfINsctVKgah4PFLoCtL_Zx4Fga2LwRIxXHI9-jg5bX7WvaHeuiloko3WZ-jfzl3i1Cdbxv3HfHZCNhyg" style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;color:blue" target="_blank"><span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">> </span>These
twins</a><font face="Times New Roman, serif"> know, directly and absolutely that their twin’s brain and consciousness exist, don’t
you think?</font></p></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div><div class="gmail_default"><font face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif"></font><font size="4">I don't know, it depends on how large the bandwidth between the 2 brains is. I know a little (a very little) about how your brain works just by the trickle of information that comes from your Emails, but if our brains were linked by a fiber optic cable of huge capacity and we were close enough that signal delays were not important and if every thought you had I had, and every thought I had you had, it would be meaningless to say that you and I were 2 seperate people. I don't know the details of the twin's case but I doubt the bandwidth is that large.</font></div></div><span style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;font-size:12pt"> </span><br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr">
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><font size="4"><span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">>> </span>“you wouldn't be Brent Allsop anymore, you'd be John Clark.”</font></blockquote><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal"><font face="Times New Roman, serif"><i><span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">> </span>When I’m talking about effing the ineffable,
I’m only talking about at the elemental redness level,</i></font></p></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><font size="4">When I close my eyes I can remember what redness is like, when the Clark/Allsop hybrid closes his eyes he remembers something called redness but is he remembering Clark's redness or Allsop's redness or neither? Perhaps he's remembering both, perhaps what Clark would call red Allsop would call green, so when the <span style="font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif">Clark/Allsop hybrid is thinking about "red" he is thinking about yellow.</span></font></div><div><br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">><i> </i></span><i>It’s as simple as the abstract word
red isn’t red. You need a dictionary to
know what red means. </i></span></p></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><font size="4">You can find out what the wavelength of red is from one but nobody learns what the qualia "redness" means from a dictionary, they learn it from examples. Before you learned how to read somebody pointed to a tomato and said "red" then they pointed to a strawberry and said "red", you figured out that the two things had something in common and learned what "redness" signified. A AI would also learn from examples not from a dictionary. Dictionaries and definitions are just not fundamentally important, all definitions in a dictionary are made of words that all have definitions also made of words and round and round we go. The only thing that can break out of that infinite loop and give meaning to language is examples, somebody points to a tall green thing and says "tree" and you get the idea.</font></div><span style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;font-size:12pt"> </span><font size="4"><br></font><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><blockquote style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex" class="gmail_quote"><font size="4">> I can't see how Darwinian Evolution managed to come up with a conscious creature like me<br></font></blockquote></div></blockquote><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"> </blockquote><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><blockquote style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex" class="gmail_quote"><font size="4"></font></blockquote>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><i><span class="gmail_default" style="font-size:12pt;font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">> </span>Darwinian evolution decided to run
your consciousness directly on physical qualities,<br></i></span></p></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><font size="4">Why does <span style="font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif">Darwinian evolution care about consciousness or even know that such a thing exists?</span></font></div></div><div> <br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><i> <span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">> </span>because it is more efficient
and it didn’t need the extra hardware required to make you substrate
independent.</i></span></p></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div class="gmail_default"><font face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif"><font size="4">So you think it would be difficult to make a super intelligent computer that was NOT conscious but easier to make a super </font></font><font size="4">intelligent computer that WAS conscious. So by <span style="font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif">Occam's razor</span> if you ever run across a super intelligent computer your default position should be that it is conscious, and you'd better hope the AI feels the same way about you.</font></div><div class="gmail_default"><font size="4"><br></font></div><div class="gmail_default"><font size="4">John K Clark</font></div></div></div>
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