<div dir="auto"><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">I think we are just talking past each other.</div><div dir="auto"><span style="font-family:sans-serif;font-size:12.8px">You said you only have redness if "ONLY THE RELEVANT OBSERVABLE BEHAVIOUR of each component of the system is preserved". Then only Glutamate behavior is the relevant observable behavior. And when one is aware that it has changed to greenness, it is the different glycene behavior that is the only diferent relevant observable behavior. Isn't it? Or can you substitute half of the strawberry redness "relevant observable behavior" with greenness "relevant observable behavior" and the system will still say all of the strawberry is red?</span><br></div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto"><br></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Sat, Dec 21, 2019, 6:23 PM Stathis Papaioannou <<a href="mailto:stathisp@gmail.com">stathisp@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><br></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Sun, 22 Dec 2019 at 11:20, Brent Allsop <<a href="mailto:brent.allsop@gmail.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">brent.allsop@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">Hi Stathis:</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif;background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial">1. If glutamate is swapped for glycine and
glutamate receptors for glycine receptors in half the neurons in your brain,
all the neurons in your brain will continue firing in the same sequence, and
all the muscles in your body will continue contracting in the same sequence.</span><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">This is where you are problematically
removing the binding system that is directly aware of what glutamate is functionally
like and how glycine functionality is physically different. You must have the ability to computationally
bind thousands of pixels made up of half glutamate strawberry and half glycine
leaves, and these are all computationally bound together so you can be aware of
all of them at the same time. When you
remove this ability to distinguish between two different physical representations
in this way, the fading/dancing problems come up.</span></p></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Of course, if the scientist misses something it won't function in the same way. Maybe glycine receptors are slower to respond to glycine that glutamate receptors respond to glutamate, which would slow down the rate of neuronal firing, which in turn might change both the way colours are perceived and the way this is reported by the subject. But that is not what this thought experiment is about. It assumes that EVERY RELEVANT OBSERVABLE BEHAVIOUR of the glutamate-receptor system can be replicated by a different neurotransmitter-receptor system. Being "directly aware of what glutamate is functionally like" is not an OBSERVABLE BEHAVIOUR of the glutamate-receptor system, like the speed of response of the receptor to its neurotransmitter is.</div><div> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">Where in this system you are
describing is the ability to be aware of redness, which includes the ability to
say that anything other than redness is not redness? No matter where I add this functionality, you
always remove it with this anti binding system mistaken way. And of course, when you make these kinds of
logical mistakes, problems like “fading”/”dancing” qualia emerge. If you include that functionality, it becomes
obvious how everything just works, and this “fading”/”dancing” problem is just
irrelevant.</span></p></div></blockquote><div> <br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal"><font face="Times New Roman, serif"><span style="font-size:12pt">No matter how many times I say you
need to provide this ability to detect only redness, and nothing else, you just
continue to say that doesn’t matter. And
the fact that you say that is </span><span style="font-size:16px">proof</span><span style="font-size:12pt"> that you aren't yet thinking of it the right way. This mistake is the cause of all the fading/dancing
problems. The fact that you keep asserting
this doesn’t matter just proves you are not thinking about qualia in the right way. You must include an ability to know when
something has physically (or magically, or functionally) changed.</span></font></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal"><br></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal"><font face="Times New Roman, serif"><span style="font-size:16px">If you provide there, there will be no "hard" problems.</span></font></p></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>What I am saying is that the ability to detect redness, distinguish redness from other colours, become excited at the experience of redness, if it is present at all, MUST be preserved if ONLY THE RELEVANT OBSERVABLE BEHAVIOUR of each component of the system is preserved. You don't agree, but you haven't explained what exactly would go wrong if glutamate were replaced with glycine. It is as if I proposed changing a component in your car with a component identical in EVERY RELEVANT OBSERVABLE BEHAVIOUR but you believed the car would behave differently despite this, unless the component came from the original manufacturer.</div><div><br></div></div><div><br></div>-- <br><div dir="ltr">Stathis Papaioannou</div></div>
</blockquote></div>