<div dir="ltr"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">John, I just realized that when you
said: “That will never change”, you may have been meaning to say: “The abstract
objective will <b>never </b>be able to eff the ineffable without physical qualitative definitions
of the terms being used.” If you meant
that, I apologize.</span></p></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Mon, Dec 23, 2019 at 11:08 AM Brent Allsop <<a href="mailto:brent.allsop@gmail.com">brent.allsop@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal"><font face="Times New Roman, serif"><span style="font-size:12pt">Very nice poem Spike thanks for jumping
in. I so enjoyed the </span><span style="font-size:16px">commentary</span><span style="font-size:12pt"> on being interested
in this, over politics, and all that. Our local newspaper has only two
sections, today. Politics on in the
small front section, and a second larger sports section. Nothing else.
Also, last night at a neighborhood Christmas party, I asked why the US
needs more than 10 aircraft carriers (they have 11). But that just opened a flood gate of fear
mongering, worshipping how things used to be (evidently everything today is
worn out) and a bunch of fear about China (as if they are going to invade the
US and militarily force us to be communist.
(LOL, they were saying all this fear mongering about china, while at the
same time talking about how we can’t even force puny Afghanistan to adopt our
form of government.) It is often very draining
to be in Utah. You guys make it possible,
even enjoyable to survive.</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">Now back to the good stuff. we must remember to distinguish between color
and knowledge of color (Requires a different term to not be qualia blind so “colorness”). I wasn’t going to do this as it is still broken
and not finished, but part of the a video we are creating on this topic showing
how knowledge of color, or colorness, can be inverted from color is now <a href="https://canonizer.com/videos/consciousness/" style="color:blue" target="_blank">here</a>. But at least the play button works. This shows how “perception” can be inverted
at any point in the long perception chain, resulting in <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverted_spectrum" style="color:blue" target="_blank">inverted qualia</a>.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal"><font face="Times New Roman, serif"><span style="font-size:12pt">This shows how all objectively perceived
information, even all poetry, is abstracted away from any physical qualities. The only way to know what a word like “redness”
means, physically, is to experience it directly/subjectively, so you can build
your own internal dictionary definition for the word redness. Again, glutamate has both a color property
and a colorness property. Since it
reflects white light, its color is “white”.
But when we are directly aware of it reacting in a synapse, we are directly
aware of </span><span style="font-size:16px">its</span><span style="font-size:12pt"> colorness property which is redness. We have abstract descriptions (even poetry?) of
how glutamate reacts in a synapse, but nothing, yet to tell us the colorness
those poetic descriptions are describing.</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">John made this very falsifiable (consciousness
is not <a href="https://canonizer.com/topic/88-Approachable-Via-Science/2" style="color:blue" target="_blank">approachable
via science</a>) statement:</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">“Except for their own qualia
EVERYBODY is qualia blind even poets, the handicap is not limited to physicists
and neuroscientists. And <b>that will never change</b>.”</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">Again, once we have <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Ru9fw7szQw" style="color:blue" target="_blank">neural ponytails</a>, that computationally
bind like the corpus callosum, we will direct experience all of the
experiences, not just half. With that we
will directly experience whether or not someone else’s redness is like our greenness
or not, just as surely as we know that physical redness is the same physical redness
in both the left and right hemispheres of our brain. This will be as undeniable as “I think, therefor
I am.” Direct experience cannot be mistaken/inverted like “perception” can.</span></p></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Mon, Dec 23, 2019 at 8:47 AM spike jones via extropy-chat <<a href="mailto:extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org" target="_blank">extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div lang="EN-US"><div><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> extropy-chat <<a href="mailto:extropy-chat-bounces@lists.extropy.org" target="_blank">extropy-chat-bounces@lists.extropy.org</a>> <b>On Behalf Of </b>John Clark via extropy-chat<br><br><u></u><u></u></p><div><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p></div><div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:13.5pt">Except for their own qualia EVERYBODY is qualia blind even poets, the handicap is not limited to physicists and neuroscientists. And that will never change. </span><u></u><u></u></p></div></div><div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif">…</span><u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:13.5pt">John K Clark<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal">Indeed sir? Ye of little faith. John I can see your qualia, me lad. Only recently in history can we do it. We can all go right now into excel or something equivalent to it, go into your color wheel where it says “more colors” set the red to 255, the green and blue to zero, and there my friends, is the absolute objective definition of RED! What you see there is red. No subjectivity left, no wiggle room, the computer people have handed us a great gift.<u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal">Do let me go on that for a minute before I dispute John’s notion in verse. <u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal">Yesterday was the winter solstice, which is always a time of great rejoicing because the darkest days are behind us for the year. Now each day, more sunshine returns, lifting our spirits, minute by minute of increased access to that glorious fusion reactor in the sky, oh what a marvelous time. So we are at the time of the year in which the sun begins its annual return, we are at a point in history where mankind is undergoing a great awakening, LIGO results are blowing our minds every few weeks, our childrens is learnin, we are here, we are alive, and oh life is good.<u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal">John claims even the poets are qualia blind. No way Jose! Set your color wheel to 255, 0, 0 and there it is, in all its refulgent glory! Here’s a poet’s view for ya:<u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal">There once was a young man named Clark<u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal">In science he made his life’s mark<u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal">He would often see red<u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal">And so it was said<u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal">It’s clear he is not in the dark.<u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal">We have been with extropians so long<u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal">We knew this routine like a song,<u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal">We could see his red qualia<u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal">So the notion was folly, a<u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal">Lot of us knew it was wrong.<u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal">But we’d rather talk about that<u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal">Than some dreary political spat<u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal">So they all played along<u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal">And sang the old song<u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal">Though some were sharp and some flat.<u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal">There ya go John, proof. Poets can see your qualia. Set that color wheel as specified, 255, 0,0 then what you see and what I see are the SAME! By definition! Perhaps one must be a poet like your old pal spike to eff this ineffable concept. But I see it. I have the eye of a POET!<u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal">I fear the ExI discussion at this merry Newtonmas season has been far not silly enough for our standards, so I invite some annual silliness or failing that, just some cheerful winter solstice greetings are in order such as the one I send to all of you, from the poet laureate of… my house. <u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal">May the new year bring you every happiness, may the joy of fresh LIGO results bless your home and family, may the spirit of dynamic optimism move your soul, may science and technology infuse your being and lift your spirits and we grow together in new understanding.<u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal">spike <u></u><u></u></p></div></div></div></div>_______________________________________________<br>
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