<div dir="ltr"><div>Hi Bill,</div><div><br></div><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Thu, Dec 26, 2019 at 10:30 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <<a href="mailto:extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org">extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div style="font-family:"comic sans ms",sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0)">I think it's only circular if there is only one example. bill w</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">What do you mean by "Only one example"?</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal"><font face="Times New Roman, serif"><span style="font-size:12pt">All information we have, all informant
in all computers today, and all information we get through our senses is
abstract information. Anything can represent
it, but only if you have an </span><span style="font-size:16px">interpretation</span><span style="font-size:12pt"> mechanism to know what it means. Everything in the perception process
is abstract. Thit is, up until the brain
makes </span><span style="font-size:16px">its</span><span style="font-size:12pt"> final qualitative interpretation: “Do I represent this pixel of </span><span style="font-size:16px">conscious</span><span style="font-size:12pt"> </span><span style="font-size:16px">information</span><span style="font-size:12pt"> with physical
redness or physical greenness?” </span></font><span style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;font-size:12pt">What our brain </span><span style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;font-size:16px">chooses</span><span style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;font-size:12pt"> to represent
conscious information with is what makes consciousness substrate dependent. Sure, a red/green qualia invert can function indistinguishably
from another, but subjectively one is physically different than the other.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">And as I keep saying: There is no “Hard
Mind Body Problem”, it’s just a color problem.
All physicists and neuroscientists of perception, and all the information
they provide to us are “qualia blind”. It is all no different than everything Frank Jackson's Mary knows. O</span><span style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;font-size:12pt">f
all the things experimentalists observe and describe, they never can tell us which of those is
a description of redness, and how this differs from greenness.</span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;font-size:12pt"><br></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal"><font face="Times New Roman, serif"><span style="font-size:12pt">And again: You don't perceive colorness, colorness is the final physical result of </span><span style="font-size:16px">conscious</span><span style="font-size:12pt"> perception. It is the physical quality of the physics our brain decides to represent conscious </span><span style="font-size:16px">information</span><span style="font-size:12pt"> with. We are </span><span style="font-size:16px">directly</span><span style="font-size:12pt"> aware of it. Perception can be mistaken, and requires qualitative interpretation. Physical redness just is the quality of some set of physics.</span></font></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal"><font face="Times New Roman, serif"><span style="font-size:12pt"><br></span></font></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal"><font face="Times New Roman, serif"><span style="font-size:12pt">You need to define a word like red. And physical redness is that definition.</span></font></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal"><font face="Times New Roman, serif"><span style="font-size:12pt"><br></span></font></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal"><font face="Times New Roman, serif"><span style="font-size:12pt"><br></span></font></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal"><br></p></div><div> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Thu, Dec 26, 2019 at 10:43 AM John Clark via extropy-chat <<a href="mailto:extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org" target="_blank">extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><span style="font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif">On Mon, Dec 23, 2019 at 4:29 PM Brent Allsop via extropy-chat <<a href="mailto:extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org" target="_blank">extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</a>> wrote:</span><br></div></div><div class="gmail_quote"><br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">> </span><i>In other words, both (255, 0, 0) and "red" are not physically red. You need to point to something and say: "THAT is red" to provide a physical definition to those abstract terms. </i></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div><font face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif"></font><font size="4">If you're interested in subjectivity, or in gaining understanding of the most basic fundamental nature of anything, not just consciousness, you've got to forget about definitions because ultimately that always leads to circularity, instead you've got to use examples. You point to a ripe tomato and say "That is (255, 0, 0), aka pure red". If I were to make a change in that convention so that now the color of a ripe tomato was (0, 0, 255) then your objective behavior would not change and subjectively you could not even tell that a change had been made. So if objectively the inversion is not important and subjectively it's nor important either then the inversion was just not important.</font></div><div><font size="4"><br></font></div><div><font size="4">John K Clark</font></div>
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