<div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:comic sans ms,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:#000000">I suspect the protesters, Hawaii and everywhere else, win because of our guilt. What empires have always done is run roughshod over native peoples, some with genocide (intended or not - small pox or weapons). Read about the British Empire, for instance. Terrible things they did to the people of India, just for one example. </div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:comic sans ms,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:#000000"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:comic sans ms,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:#000000">In the world we know those things don't go on much and the nations that did it are suffering from collective guilt and it's not just the way out liberals either. We did not and don't respect the religions and culture of other people and tried and are trying to replace theirs with ours. And that's just the way human beings have always been - us versus them.</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:comic sans ms,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:#000000"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:comic sans ms,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:#000000">That's why I say, with the knowledge that nobody will listen to me now or ever, that what we should be doing to improve the human race is not tap our brains into computers or in some way increase our intelligence; we should be trying to develop our empathy for others. I would like to make 'This hurts me as much as it hurts you' a reality.</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:comic sans ms,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:#000000"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:comic sans ms,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:#000000">bill w</div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Tue, Dec 31, 2019 at 2:06 PM spike jones via extropy-chat <<a href="mailto:extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org">extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div lang="EN-US"><div class="gmail-m_4847761705246003617WordSection1"><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> extropy-chat <<a href="mailto:extropy-chat-bounces@lists.extropy.org" target="_blank">extropy-chat-bounces@lists.extropy.org</a>> <b>On Behalf Of </b>John Clark via extropy-chat<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [ExI] The Thirty Meter Telescope is now officially dead<u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p><div><div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif">On Mon, Dec 30, 2019 at 9:07 PM ddraig--- via extropy-chat <<a href="mailto:extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org" target="_blank">extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</a>> wrote:<u></u><u></u></span></p></div></div><div><div><p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p></div><blockquote style="border-top:none;border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-left:1pt solid rgb(204,204,204);padding:0in 0in 0in 6pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in"><div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><i>This entire rambling discussion si not at all about the mob. It is about you.</i><u></u><u></u></p></div></div></blockquote><div><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:13.5pt">Wow, I don't know what to say...I'm flattered you think I'm important enough to deserve such a long discussion.</span><u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p></div><blockquote style="border-top:none;border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-left:1pt solid rgb(204,204,204);padding:0in 0in 0in 6pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in"><div><div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span class="gmail-m_4847761705246003617gmaildefault"><i><span style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif">> </span></i></span><i>I don't think the mob is evil. </i><u></u><u></u></p></div></div></div></blockquote><div><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:13.5pt">I know, and that's exactly why I objected so strongly when you said we agreed. <br><br>Hey Spike... do you still say not one person on the list is sticking up for that mob?<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal">I do. The mobs have their motives, profit, superstition, etc. They won this round because they were willing to commit violence.<u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal">I urge us all to take a step back for a minute and think in bigger terms. We have examples in California where the NIMBYs have been empowered to stop developments by claiming their ancestors once walked here. They aren’t even required to prove it: that’s one of those cases where we Americans are bending over backwards to try to be completely equitable to everyone.<u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal">Are the NIMBYs evil? They have their motives. Developers usually quietly pay them off to go away. When that happens, the others get the message, and make sure they are in line to get a big payoff. Some there may even believe their ancestors once walked there, I don’t know, but I do know the end result: new developments cost so much that more and more people can’t afford a home. Result: go to San Francisco and see it for yourself.<u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal">Evil? Well, they realize they can take advantage of our laws to make money. Lawyers do that. Are they evil? Depends on how you look at it I suppose.<u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal">This mob stopping the telescope wants a payoff. They paid them before, now they want more. That’s the nature of this game.<u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal">My prediction is that we will be forced to go to an inferior site elsewhere, somewhere where they have a bit different method of dealing with protesting mobs.<u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal">We can call this evil if we want, and stopping that telescope is evil from my point of view, but I must say in a sense we brought this on ourselves. We like to think we can make everything fair in this old world but I think we cannot.<u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal">There is one more point here: a minority willing to commit violence is more powerful than the majority. This mob is acting illegally and are willing to physically harm the astronomers and builders. With that willingness, they win, just as the mafia wins so many rounds, for they are willing to commit violence.<u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal">I don’t have the answers.<u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal">spike<u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"> <span class="gmail-m_4847761705246003617gmaildefault"><span style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif"><u></u><u></u></span></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p></div></div></div></div></div>_______________________________________________<br>
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