<div dir="ltr"><div><br></div><div>OH, sorry. I duplicated the two scientific discovery references. The second reference that just came out this morning that could be the discovery of a binding neuron system was this</div><h1 class="gmail-ia2amp-header-h1" style="font-family:"Open Sans",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(0,0,0);margin:0px 16.4px;padding:0px;border-width:0px;border-style:solid;line-height:30px"><font size="2"><a href="https://www-sciencealert-com.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/www.sciencealert.com/a-newly-discovered-signal-in-neurons-hints-at-the-power-of-the-human-brain/amp?usqp=mq331AQCKAE%3D&_js_v=0.1#referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&_tf=From%20%251%24s&share=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.sciencealert.com%2Fa-newly-discovered-signal-in-neurons-hints-at-the-power-of-the-human-brain">Scientists Uncover a Never-Before-Seen Type of Signal Occurring in The Human Brain</a></font></h1><div><br></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Mon, Jan 6, 2020 at 9:07 AM Brent Allsop <<a href="mailto:brent.allsop@gmail.com">brent.allsop@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">Oh wow. Ever more scientific evidence continues to
come out very nearly identical to what “<a href="https://canonizer.com/topic/88-Representational-Qualia/6" style="color:blue" target="_blank">Representational
Qualia Theory</a>” has been predicting.
Last month there was this “</span><b><span style="font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif;color:rgb(80,80,80);background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial"><a href="https://www.cell.com/neuron/fulltext/S0896-6273(18)30723-2" style="color:blue" target="_blank">Distinct
Laminar Processing of Local and Global Context</a>” </span></b><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">describing how the brain is able to get the strawberry from
a cortical column pixel, um I man a “forest from the tree”.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal"><span style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;font-size:12pt">We’ve been instructing the animators
working on our video to hypothetically place the binding neuron in the outer most
layer of the cortex, computationally binding these cortical columns. And this “</span><b style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:11pt"><span style="font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif;color:rgb(80,80,80);background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial"><a href="https://www.cell.com/neuron/fulltext/S0896-6273(18)30723-2" style="color:blue" target="_blank">Distinct
Laminar Processing of Local and Global Context</a>”</span></b><font face="Times New Roman, serif"><span style="font-size:12pt"> just came out this morning.
It looks to me like this new </span><span style="font-size:16px">discovery</span><span style="font-size:12pt"> could be exactly describing neural logic
with multiple inputs that could react differently, based on the diverse physical
qualities of the many inputs, in the outer most layer of the cortex.</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">Again, this is all exactly as we’ve <a href="https://canonizer.com/videos/consciousness/" style="color:blue" target="_blank">portrayed knowledge of a
strawberry</a> laid out in the visual cortex:</span></p><div><img src="cid:ii_k52mmf2h0" alt="image.png" width="256" height="144"><br></div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><a href="https://drive.google.com/file/d/16f0my54ba7m7SliUDkGdvcxdfOJmfZiI/view?usp=sharing" style="color:blue" target="_blank"><span style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(17,85,204);border:1pt none windowtext;padding:0in;text-decoration-line:none"><span id="gmail-m_3971047698041409733gmail-_x0000_t75">
</span><span id="gmail-m_3971047698041409733gmail-Picture_x0020_42" type="#_x0000_t75" href="https://drive.google.com/file/d/16f0my54ba7m7SliUDkGdvcxdfOJmfZiI/view?usp=sharing" style="width:192pt;height:108.5pt">
</span></span></a><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">With the Deep “Longitudinal Fissure”
between the two hemispheres, and the “Transverse occipital sulcus” splitting
the visual cortex, yet again, into 4 sections, from top to bottom making room
so the cortex can scrunch down in this cross of folds in the center of vision, to
make room for the higher resolution of pixels at the center of the field of
vision.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">Oh, and John asked:</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><b><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;color:rgb(0,176,80)">“Suppose we merged our
brains Avatar like as you suggest, the resulting creature, Brent Clark, would have to be consistent in its use of
qualia just as we are and that includes the memories that both of us have. For
the sake of argument let's suppose our red and green qualia really are
reversed, if so what would Brent Clark experience when he looked at a ripe tomato?</span>”</b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal"><font face="Times New Roman, serif"><span style="font-size:12pt">Again, you are talking about composite
functionality, while I’m talking elemental physics, out of which such composite
functionality is composed. In your brain
the definition of redness is wired to glutamate. In your </span><span style="font-size:16px">partner's</span><span style="font-size:12pt"> brain, the definition of
redness is wired to glycine. You could
bind things at different levels of functionality. But just as you point out, the higher you go
in your binding, things become exponentially more complex. But you could still find creative ways to do
things, or just simply bind it at the elemental level.</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">You of course would want to keep
some of your memories bound to particular sensations private, and not share things
like that. Though it would be hard to
include the binding of the same name to different physical qualities, you could
find ways to enable such in a more complex computationally bound way.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">So, you are facing your partner with
both of your visual cortexes computationally bound. Your visual cortex has knowledge of what is
in front of you. Your partners visual
cortex has knowledge of what is behind you.
You are looking at a strawberry, above and behind the head of your partner. Assuming you were doing the computational
binding at the simplest elemental level this is what it would be like. As you rotate the strawberry around from in
front of you, to behind you, as this knowledge of the strawberry moved between your visual cortex and your
partner’s, it would change from redness to greenness, just as it does in our video,
when the cell phone moves across the field of light between the strawberry and
the eye.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"> </span></p></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Mon, Jan 6, 2020 at 6:35 AM John Clark via extropy-chat <<a href="mailto:extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org" target="_blank">extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><span style="font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif">On Sun, Jan 5, 2020 at 11:27 PM Brent Allsop via extropy-chat <<a href="mailto:extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org" target="_blank">extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</a>> wrote:</span><br></div></div><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_quote"> </div></div></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_quote"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"></blockquote><div><i><span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">> </span>When you experience a redness quality, when you are dreaming or not, there must be something, that is that redness quality you are experiencing. </i></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><font size="4">But that redness qualia could not exist in isolation, it needs contrast to have a meaning and only other color qualia can provide that. So the important thing determining what you subjective experience will be is how many distinguishable labels (aka color qualia) you can stick on wavelengths of light not the particulars of what chemicals the labels are made of. </font></div></div><div> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_quote"><div><span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">> <i></i></span><i>My redness could be like your greenness,</i></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div class="gmail_default"><font face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif"></font><font size="4">We already know some things about that, we know that my redness can't be identical to your redness because we have a different brain structure, and we both know that whatever qualia the other uses to label electromagnetic waves with a frequency of 400 terahertz it's consistent, I put the same label on both strawberries and ripe tomatoes and you do the same. But is my redness closer to your redness or your greenness? Suppose we merged our brains Avatar like as you suggest, the resulting creature, Brent Clark, would have to be consistent in its use of qualia just as we are and that includes the memories that both of us have. For the sake of argument let's suppose our red and green qualia really are reversed, if so what would Brent Clark experience when he looked at a ripe tomato? </font></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><br></div><font size="4">There is no unique answer to that, any consistent labeling system would do; perhaps he would see a tomato as my red (your green) or perhaps as your red (my green) or maybe he would see a combination of both and see a tomato as being what we both think of as yellow. Brent Clark would know the answer, he would know what it's like for Brent Clark to look at a tomato, but that's all he'd know. And neither Brent Allsop or John Clark would have learned anything about how the other views the world.</font><br><div> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_quote"><div><span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">> <i></i></span><i>If you engineered someone to be identical to you, except that person swapped all redness/glutamate with glycine/grenness, and visa versa, you would function identically, but qualitatively your knowledge would be physically different. My redness would be like your grenness.</i></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div class="gmail_default"><font face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif"></font><font size="4">I don't see how the knowledge could be different if there is no way you could even KNOW that such a change had happened, and there wouldn't be as long as the change was made consistently. There would be a objective difference in brain structure but that change would produce no change in objective behavior, and there would be no change in subjective experience at all. </font></div><div> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_quote"><div></div><div><i><span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">> </span>The idea of a single neuron firing with with either glutamate or glycine is just an over simplified example to simplify understand how we might bridge the explanatory gap, or find out whether your redness is more like my grenness, or not. </i></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div class="gmail_default"><font face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif"><font size="4">I don't think that is </font></font><font size="4">over simplified. In fact I think if you're topic is qualia then worrying about the detailed chemistry of glutamate and glycine is being overly complex, the only thing you need to know about them is that there is at least one physical process that can distinguish between the two chemicals.</font></div><div class="gmail_default"><font size="4"><br></font></div><div class="gmail_default"><font size="4"> John K Clark</font></div>
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